So can we have an actual discussion about Shogun?

Stellar run in Pride and became a UFC champion.

Shogun’s career is legendary. He’s out of his prime. It happens to everyone who sticks around log enough. That’s the nature of combat sports.
 
This is a tough call. It’s impossible to say he would’ve been UFC champ in his prime with
Guys like DC and JJ. You have to judge him on his fights as they are on his record. Great in his prime, if you aren’t old enough to see him in his prime then exit this conversation.

Pride fighters in general hasnt done well in the UFC due to age and mileage. Yeah, some of them became champs but they really couldn’t sustain huge long term success.

But if you do step into the cage, even past your prime with past injuries and mileage aren’t excuses.
 
I hope Shogun keeps fighting until he no longer wants to and that money isn't a deciding factor in him continuing to fight.
Nobody gets out this world alive, maybe giving up his passion doesn't outweigh possible cte or health problems down the road.
 
Pakman said:
pretty sure you don't even watch MMA if that is an actual thought you had. Please go educate yourself and then come back to these forums before spewing nonsense such as this.
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He lost to Chael by submission.
 
It is impossible to have an actual discussion about pride fighters because most older MMA fans get nostalgic/emotionally involved. Shogun was good, he had a great chin, power in both hands and aggression which could work either in his favor or against him. His actual striking abililty is overrated by most pride era fans. If you have watched his fights against Overeem and Cyril, you could see that they were more technical but Shogun overcame them either due to a better chin or on the ground. He obviously did beat Rampage, Chuck (you could say he was a little past his prime) ,could have beaten Wanderlei if they ever fought. Tito and Rashad, I cant really tell, it depends on if they can keep him on the ground and grind it out, on the feet he would ve killed them. He lost to old Dan Henderson twice, although his fans would swear that a 'prime' Shogun wipes the floor with him, which I Do not believe is the case. Henderson had a better chin, wrestling and power which would work well against the aggressive style of any version of Shogun. IMO no version of Shogun beats Cormier, Jones or Anthony Johnson.
 
karateisundratd said:
It is impossible to have an actual discussion about pride fighters because most older MMA fans get nostalgic/emotionally involved. Shogun was good, he had a great chin, power in both hands and aggression which could work either in his favor or against him. His actual striking abililty is overrated by most pride era fans. If you have watched his fights against Overeem and Cyril, you could see that they were more technical but Shogun overcame them either due to a better chin or on the ground. He obviously did beat Rampage, Chuck (you could say he was a little past his prime) ,could have beaten Wanderlei if they ever fought. Tito and Rashad, I cant really tell, it depends on if they can keep him on the ground and grind it out, on the feet he would ve killed them. He lost to old Dan Henderson twice, although his fans would swear that a 'prime' Shogun wipes the floor with him, which I Do not believe is the case. Henderson had a better chin, wrestling and power which would work well against the aggressive style of any version of Shogun. IMO no version of Shogun beats Cormier, Jones or Anthony Johnson.
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You´re actually forgettin´ about his underrated ground game.

I suggest you watch his rookie fight vs Babalu... Really interesting...
He was actually introduced as a Wajutsu fighter at the beginning.
 
I hate to be the "in his prime" guy, but I will. The shogun that fought machida would have smashed Smith. He honestly just got caught tonight in a exchange.
 
LMAO at thread title followed by the OP.
 
If you legit think the guy who beat Machida in his prime by outstriking him loses to Anthony Smith you are probably retarded.
 
gono btw said:
You´re actually forgettin´ about his underrated ground game.

I suggest you watch his rookie fight vs Babalu... Really interesting...
He was actually introduced as a Wajutsu fighter at the beginning.
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Would you favor him on the ground versus Rashad and Tito assuming they would be on top?
 
gono btw said:
You´re actually forgettin´ about his underrated ground game.

I suggest you watch his rookie fight vs Babalu... Really interesting...
He was actually introduced as a Wajutsu fighter at the beginning.
Click to expand...

Youre being overly nostalgic. Shogun my favorite fighter ever but no version of him ever beats Dc, Gus or Jones. Maybe he beats Rumble 3 out of 10 cause Rumble makes mental mistakes but Shogun isn't one of the 3 or 4 best lhws ever.
 
Evangelion said:
Youre being overly nostalgic. Shogun my favorite fighter ever but no version of him ever beats Dc, Gus or Jones. Maybe he beats Rumble 3 out of 10 cause Rumble makes mental mistakes but Shogun isn't one of the 3 or 4 best lhws ever.
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uh? I said nuthin´about Shogun vs DC or JBJ...lmao

Strictly talkin´ about his skillset.
 
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karateisundratd said:
Would you favor him on the ground versus Rashad and Tito assuming they would be on top?
Click to expand...
Shogun had a pretty dynamic guard back in the days, a versatile ground game and creative submissions or submission attempts (especially kneebars,leglocks and omoplatas) that enabled him to find a way to recover on the ground.

Enjoy this fight>

 
rjmbrd said:
We're still shuffling around the old farts of yesteryear at 205/265 because the UFC fails to attract elite athletes of that size into MMA.

Shogun was a world class MMA fighter many years ago. Now he's well outside of his prime but the ranks of his division so thin he's stuck around much longer than a professional athlete should.

Imagine the NFL we're starting guys a decade outside their prime.
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Uhm James Harrison, Bruce Smith, Dwight Freeney?
 
fedoriswar37 said:
No apparantly Shogun will be defined by his loss tonight. Like fuck , does any pro sport have greats disrespected like MMA
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Nope, pretty well everyother sport the fans respect the history.
 
He is not in GOAT contention, but thats fine.
No need to overanalyse this. He was a great fighter to watch, and spent over decade at the top the sport.
His two fights with Hendo alone are the stuff of legend.
Alas his time is up, he should retire.
 
Shogun was the best LHW in the world for a very short period of time. Injuries started causing his downfall and now I’m not sure he’s even close to top 20. The thing about Shogun is that he was very good back in the days but MMA has evolved and Shogun never really did. Without injuries I think he would be a lot better than he is today but I don’t see him having a chance in hell beating someone like DC or Jones. Old school chute box decided to remain old school and not evolve with the rest of MMA.
 
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