So can we have an actual discussion about Shogun?

Shogun was a great fighter but he's been shot for awhile now. It's why I said prior to this fight that it wouldn't shock me if Lionheart KO'd him.

You don't win both a Pride Grand Prix and UFC belts unless you're a legendary fighter.
 
Shogun was already out of his prime when he KOd Cyril Da Snake Diabetes in 2006 after coming back from injuries.

He never recovered to his 2005 peak form...even when he won the belt he looked like he was waist-deep in water with the way he moved.

The fact that he's still fighting in the UFC is crazy and indicative that the game has barely evolved.
 
Threetrees said:
Or will the mods delete an honest thread

How good was Shogun really?

When he examine his legacy, I think it's clear that he's not one of the true GOATs of this sport
He had a year of dominance, and then a mixture of injuries and bad luck robbed him of his prime

And there's nothing wrong with that
He had another flash when he beat Machida

but I think tonight we see what his limit is,
his limit is a guy like Anthony Smith, a good not great LHW
that's probably what Shogun's career will be defined as

Any version of him would have lost tonight
Click to expand...


It's likely you're a novice fan, or just started watching mma.

You look at any athletes career in hindsight, with a lack of experience and knowledge, and you'll find holes in people's game.
 
Katsumi Yamada said:
He had a lot more in his arsenal than that in 2005.
Due to debilitating injuries, that's what his game devolved into.
Click to expand...

you're right, he also had knees and stomps to downed opponents, which were made illegal
he also had the thai clinch, which got figured out
he also has that trip from the clinch, but he's too old for that now

he replaced all those skills by tapping

i just don't buy the whole knee surgery narrative, sorry
GSP and Cruz came back from the same thing
 
Was a beast back in the day. Injuries essentially ended his career and he literally never adapted learned or added new tricks to his game.
 
Cormier's Little Guy said:
Just another fight that shows that the UFC is much better than Pride ever was. A bunch of roided out can crushers in that org. A couple of good fighters like Hendo, but not much else.
Click to expand...

Yeah cuz a past prime shogun losing totally states exactly what you said.......what a fucking idiot lmao wow.

Not like shogun beat machida when he was his most dominant to become the UFC LHW CHAMP or anything....

Your an idiot move along......
 
Threetrees said:
hey
reality of the sport

Anthony Smith is an evolved fighter,
Shogun's highest points were back when he was beating up guys like Arona who wouldn't even be UFC fighters today
Click to expand...

Yup

Anthony Smith is "new breed" dog


Any version of guys like Lombard, Rashad and Shogun would have lost to the pinnacle of fight evolution that is Anthony Smith.


Just like any version of Adlan Amagov wrecks Anthony Smith.
 
Threetrees said:
hey
reality of the sport

Anthony Smith is an evolved fighter,
Shogun's highest points were back when he was beating up guys like Arona who wouldn't even be UFC fighters today
Click to expand...

Arona would probably be the 2nd best LHW in the UFC if he fought today lol
 
WHITE ANDERSON said:
you're right, he also had knees and stomps to downed opponents, which were made illegal
he also had the thai clinch, which got figured out
he also has that trip from the clinch, but he's too old for that now

he replaced all those skills by tapping

i just don't buy the whole knee surgery narrative, sorry
GSP and Cruz came back from the same thing
Click to expand...

knee injuries are definitely a real thing, not the entire story with shogun but definitely a major part. Look at guys like cain or D Rose in NBA. Never the same after the knee injures.
 
Tour'soverboyo said:
Huge fan, but Shogun is a big “what could have been”

He was a huge talent when he burst onto the scene but never lived up to his full potential. Kind of like BJ. While they were both clearly great in their primes, they both could have been so much more

Shogun should have retired after the Vera fight. It was clear that he was done after that performance.
Click to expand...

what? Shogun won the GP in Pride and won the belt in the UFC. What "more" did you want? He reached the top of the sport twice, once after various injuries and years apart.

BJ won the belt in 2 diff divisions, idk how he didn't live up to his 'full potential', he's still regarded as one of the best LWs of all time, if not the best, at his peak.

TS and various members of this forum are definitely braindead individuals.
 
We're still shuffling around the old farts of yesteryear at 205/265 because the UFC fails to attract elite athletes of that size into MMA.

Shogun was a world class MMA fighter many years ago. Now he's well outside of his prime but the ranks of his division so thin he's stuck around much longer than a professional athlete should.

Imagine the NFL we're starting guys a decade outside their prime.
 
The best Shogun we ever saw lost to Chael Sonnen. We all know Pride was a joke as well as their fighters.
 
Well he ascended to the top of the mountain twice in his career at his division, so I think he did alright for himself.
 
And some of you on here thought Shogun was "winning that title" later this year or sometime next year lol
 
Threetrees said:
hey
reality of the sport

Anthony Smith is an evolved fighter,
Shogun's highest points were back when he was beating up guys like Arona who wouldn't even be UFC fighters today
Click to expand...

<28>11/10 troll thread tbf

Shogun fans deserve it after all of the delusional diarrhea they've spewed throughout the years
 
Posted this same thing for years. Shogun was out of his prime by the time he was 28. His record is not reflective of the fighter he was. For you kids, Shogun was ranked the top 205 lb'er in the world for a couple years. But his light burned super bright and then burned out.
 
WHITE ANDERSON said:
you're right, he also had knees and stomps to downed opponents, which were made illegal
he also had the thai clinch, which got figured out
he also has that trip from the clinch, but he's too old for that now

he replaced all those skills by tapping

i just don't buy the whole knee surgery narrative, sorry
GSP and Cruz came back from the same thing
Click to expand...

No two ACL injuries are the same and Shogun has had three of them. In football, Panthers' LB Thomas Davis is the only man in NFL history to successfully come back from three ACL injuries. It's a huge testament to Shogun that he was able to continue through threeajor knee injuries, but yeah, it absolutely takes a tremendous toll on your athleticism.

Go back and watch Shogun from '05 compared to anything he did in the UFC. He was a shadow of himself as an athlete.
 
These sorts of threads are hard to debate.

I tend to separate fighters into two pools.

#1 Best career
#2 Most talented

There are guys like Bo Jackson who were talented enough to be a GOAT but never reach that level due to injuries...ect.

Both groups deserve respect but only those that get the results over their entire career can be GOATS
 
squatchi26 said:
The best Shogun we ever saw lost to Chael Sonnen. We all know Pride was a joke as well as their fighters.
Click to expand...

pretty sure you don't even watch MMA if that is an actual thought you had. Please go educate yourself and then come back to these forums before spewing nonsense such as this.
 
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