SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 73 Discussion - Thief

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Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.


Newcomer @usulrah is on tap this week and he brings us the Club's first exposure to Michael Mann.


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Our Director


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Thief is directed by MICHAEL MANN.

From Biography.com:

Early Career

Director, producer and screenwriter Michael Mann was born on February 5, 1943, in Chicago, Illinois. Raised in the working class Chicago neighborhood of Humboldt Park, Mann graduated from high school in 1960 and attended the University of Wisconsin, where he received his BA in English literature. After college, Mann did graduate work at the London Film School, earning his master's degree in 1967. While in England, he worked at an advertising agency and honed his directorial skills on commercials, short films and documentaries.

Mann moved back to Chicago in 1971 and relocated to Los Angeles a year later, where he began writing for television, scripting the prime time crime dramas Starsky and Hutch and Police Story and the pilot for a 1978 TV movie, Vega$. His first TV directorial effort, a drama called The Jericho Mile (1979), won Mann a Director's Guild of America Award as well as an Emmy for co-writing. In 1981, Mann made his feature film directorial debut with Thief, a crime drama starring James Caan; the film received good reviews but never took off commercially.

His next offering as a director, The Keep (1983), was both a commercial and a critical disappointment. Mann's third effort was Manhunter (1987), a little-seen film based on Thomas Harris's novel Red Dragon that introduced the character of serial killer Hannibal Lecter (made famous by Anthony Hopkins in the Oscar-winning 1991 film version of Harris's second Lecter novel, The Silence of the Lambs).


Television Success


Though directing feature films was Mann's first love, he had considerably more success early on as a producer for television, especially with his work as executive producer for the mid-1980s crime series Miami Vice. Mann served as the mastermind behind the slick, stylized drama, which aired on NBC from 1984 to 1989 and starred Don Johnson and Philip Michael Thomas as Detectives Crockett and Tubbs.

A then-hip, fast-paced cop drama for the MTV generation, Miami Vice almost immediately became a full-fledged cultural phenomenon; Crockett and Tubbs, with their pastel shirts and Armani suits, became icons of '80s fashion. Mann also executive-produced another cop series, Police Story, which aired from 1986 to 1988. Mann compounded his TV success in 1990, when he served as executive producer for the Emmy Award-winning NBC miniseries Drug Wars: The Camarena Story and its sequel Drug Wars: The Cocaine Cartel (1992).


Feature Film Success

In 1992, Mann had a certain measure of big-screen triumph with his ambitious adaptation of James Fenimore Cooper's novel The Last of the Mohicans. He co-wrote, directed and produced the action-packed film, which starred Daniel Day-Lewis. Mann also wrote and directed the long-awaited pairing of Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro (the two actors appeared in 1974's The Godfather Part II but never had a scene together) in the crime drama Heat (1995), which met with mixed reviews.

In 1999, Mann co-wrote, directed, and produced The Insider, a film based on the true story of an ex-tobacco company executive (played by Russell Crowe) who is convinced by a TV news producer (Pacino) to blow the whistle on the powerful tobacco industry. Mann and Eric Roth (who penned the 1994 Oscar winner Forrest Gump) adapted the screenplay from a 1996 Vanity Fair article written by Marie Brenner. Although it failed to attract audiences, the film was lauded almost universally by critics, receiving Academy Award nominations for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor (Crowe) and Best Adapted Screenplay.

In the new millennium Mann made such films as Collateral (2004), Miami Vice (2006), Public Enemies (2009) and Blackhat (2015).



Our Star


James Caan: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001001


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Film Overview and YouTube Videos


Premise: Coming closer to his dream of leading a normal life, a professional safecracker agrees to do a job for the Mafia, who have other plans for him.

Budget: $5.5 million
Box Office: $11.5 million







Trivia
(courtesy of IMDB)​


* After The Godfather (1972), this is James Caan's favourite film of his own. He has stated that his monologue in the diner is the scene he is most proud of in his career.

* In the hospital scene, James Caan decided to stare coldly at J. Jay Saunders who played the doctor. This really frightened Saunders and his reaction in the scene is genuine.

* James Caan made sure to speak slowly and clearly and tried to avoid using contractions in his words. He decided that Frank would do this so he would save time by never having to repeat himself.

* The burglary tools used throughout the film (such as the hydraulic drill used in the opening sequence) were not props, but actual tools which the actors were trained to use. The tools were supplied by actual thieves who served as technical consultants on the film, principally John Santucci, who also portrays Sgt. Urizzi on screen.

* The screenplay for this film was adapted from the novel "The Home Invaders", written by Frank Hohimer, himself a professional thief. Hohimer was serving time in prison at the time this film was in production.

* When Frank tries to light his cigarette in the diner scene, the lighter does not work. This was not scripted. The prison story that Frank tells in his monologue is based on a letter Michael Mann received from a real inmate.

* In the scene in Leo's house, James Caan improvised mispronouncing "elected" as "elected-ed" to show that Frank was an uneducated man who tried project an air of sophistication.

* The vault which Frank breaks into in the opening scene was a real vault, purchased at a cost of $10,000, specifically so that James Caan could break into it, using the tools and techniques supplied by John Santucci.

* James Belushi's brother, John Belushi visited the set often. The cast and crew would often hang out at Belushi's speakeasy, The Blues Brothers Bar, after work.

* Jeff Bridges was Michael Mann's choice to play Frank in thief but was rejected due to the fact he was very young and wasn't experienced enough to play a hardened criminal.

* Film debuts of James Belushi, William Petersen, Dennis Farina, John Kapelos, and Robert Prosky

* The house that was blown up was actually a fake structure in front of the real house; nevertheless, when it blew up it heavily damaged the real house behind it. The residents and neighbors were moved to a hotel during filming.

* A 60,000 gallon water truck was used to keep the streets constantly wet.

* While James Caan liked the movie, he found the part challenging to play. "I like to be emotionally available but this guy is available to nothing."

* Al Pacino turned down the role of Frank due to scheduling conflicts.

* According to James Belushi, on the documentary series Directors, Michael Mann drove the costumer crazy trying to get Belushi a Hula shirt for the scene where they are casing the last vault.

* The only film shot by Michael Mann to be presented in a 1.85:1 standard widescreen ratio. After this film, he has shot all of his movies in 2.35:1 anamorphic widescreen ratio.

* The long "sparkler" used to melt into the big jewel safe is a real tool, known as an oxy-lance.

* The scene where Frank blows up his car lot was filmed at 4 AM in below-freezing temperature. Still over 2,000 spectators showed up to watch the explosions.



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Members: @shadow_priest_x @europe1 @jeicex @MusterX @Coolthulu @Scott Parker 27 @the muntjac @Caveat @RabidJesus @usulrah
 
I didn't pick this movie, I wanted to watch the Lector movie, not a Caan movie.

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Much to my dismay, I have to report that I liked this film much more than I thought I would. James Caan, Frank, was absolutely bad ass as an ex-convict jewel thief. This movie is kinda like the Ocean's 11 or The Score of the time period.

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During the final sequence for the big heist I was pretty sure that he was going to prison. Time was used to build tension during that scene. First they had to cut through the roof and then they had to cut into the phone lines and find the right ones, then they had to break into the "Mexico" room and give the code word to turn the alarm off, then they had to use a special tool designed especially for the job to cut into the vault. They were using a three man team to guide a 6,000 degree cut and a fire extinguisher and it was painfully long. Finally when they were in they had to load all the millions of dollars worth of diamonds. The length and detail of it really builds the tension and made me think they were going to be busted at any minute.

When they did get away I knew something major was yet to come because there was still a half hour left in the film. When his employer refused to pay it I was like, oh, ok, now comes the shit storm. I just knew a guy like him wasn't meant to get that dream home and family. The genius of the final sequence lies in the conversation Frank had with Jessie in the diner. He tells her that to survive in prison, everything had to become meaningless, even if he lives or dies.

Later in the film when his employer won't pay up he even tells Frank, "You are dangerous because you are an ex-con and you don't care about anything." I finally realized the path we were on when he sent his new wife away, fire bombed his house, and then fire bombed all his businesses. He destroyed everything his boss Leo said he was in debt to him for. That wasn't good enough for Frank though because then he went and extracted his justice on a mafia boss. Only a true hard ass would even think of trying such a thing.

We don't know what happened to Frank though as he limped off into the darkness of the final scene. I really was more engrossed with this film than I thought I would be. It was very good and another check mark in the column for the 80's.

8/10
 
This film has been on my to-watch list for years so I'm glad I was finally able to get around to it. That pretty much leaves Manhunter as the last Michael Mann film that I haven't seen but am interested in seeing. Perhaps I can get to that one soon.

I felt like this film started out very well. The opening scene where they're breaking into the vault is riveting. It's always interesting when you watch movies like this and you get to actually see how things are done. It reminds me of the early scene in To Live and Die in LA where we get to see how the counterfeit cash is actually made. Or the scene in Ozark where Jason Bateman's character breaks down the basics of money laundering. That's always interesting shit.

After that I felt like the movie slowed down. A little too much, honestly. Not that it wasn't still interesting, but I no longer felt gripped by it like I did in those opening minutes.

Once we finally get around the executing the big heist though I felt like the movie picked back up and was pretty great from that moment on.

The scene where they break into the big vault with the fire tool was exceptional, both visually and conceptually. Not only did it look amazing but It was interesting how instead of doing some real sophisticated safecracking shit, they just cut a big hole in the motherfucker.

Frank's rampage of destruction was also great. You really gotta respect Mann's practical effects game here. He said, "Fuck it, we need to blow up a house? Well let's just blow that shit up." It's always refreshing to go back to older movies and see scenes like that, which are completely devoid of any digital trickery. You get to see some real-world, badass pyrotechnics.

When Frank finally gets to kill his boss and gets into the shootout at the end, I was disappointed when it looked like he was killed. That just seemed too cliche and unwarranted. I was happy to see the vest.

One thing I wasn't sure about though was why he didn't explain to his woman that some bad guys were coming and that's why she needed to go. Why just be like, "It's over! Get out! GO!" without any explanation? Why not tell her what's up and then say he'll try to make it back to her if he can? I dunno, that scene is my one major complaint with the film. It just didn't feel true to me. It felt more like manipulative writing to get some kind of reaction from the audience. It just didn't make sense to me that if Frank were a real person that he'd handle it like that.

All in all, though, I enjoyed the movie. It's a very solid crime drama that soars pretty high at times. 7.5/10
 
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Much to my dismay, I have to report that I liked this film much more than I thought I would.

LOL. So why exactly did you think that you wouldn't be into this one?

I remember seeing the trailer and thinking that it would be right up your alley.

We don't know what happened to Frank though as he limped off into the darkness of the final scene.

I don't see why he wouldn't go back and find his wife and kid. I mean, what the fuck else is he going to do? It's not like he has anything else going on in his life.
 
This film has been on my to-watch list for years so I'm glad I was finally able to get around to it. That pretty much leaves Manhunter as the last Michael Mann film that I haven't seen but am interested in seeing. Perhaps I can get to that one soon.

I felt like this film started out very well. The opening scene where they're breaking into the vault is riveting. It's always interesting when you watch movies like this and you get to actually see how things are done. It reminds me of the early scene in To Live and Die in LA where we get to see how the counterfeit cash is actually made. Or the scene in Ozark where Jason Bateman's character breaks down the basics of money laundering. That's always interesting shit.

After that I felt like the movie slowed down. A little too much, honestly. Not that it wasn't still interesting, but I no longer felt gripped by it like I did in those opening minutes.

Once we finally get around the executing the big heist though I felt like the movie picked back up and was pretty great from that moment on.

The scene where they break into the big vault with the fire tool was exceptional, both visually and conceptually. Not only did it look amazing but It was interesting how instead of doing some real sophisticated safecracking shit, they just cut a big hole in the motherfucker.

Frank's rampage of destruction was also great. You really gotta respect Mann's practical effects game here. He said, "Fuck it, we need to blow up a house? Well let's just blow that shit up." It's always refreshing to go back to older movies and see scenes like that, which are completely devoid of any digital trickery. You get to see some real-world, badass pyrotechnics.

When Frank finally gets to kill his boss and gets into the shootout at the end, I was disappointed when it looked like he was killed. That just seemed too cliche and unwarranted. I was happy to see the vest.

One thing I wasn't sure about though was why he didn't explain to his woman that some bad guys were coming and that's why she needed to go. Why just be like, "It's over! Get out! GO!" without any explanation? Why not tell her what's up and then say he'll try to make it back to her if he can? I dunno, that scene is my one major complaint with the film. It just didn't feel true to me. It felt more like manipulative writing to get some kind of reaction from the audience. It just didn't make sense to me that if Frank were a real person that he'd handle it like that.

All in all, though, I enjoyed the movie. It's a very solid crime drama that soars pretty high at times. 7.5/10
On why frank didn't explain to Jessie the reasons I thought was because he need the same mental attitude he had in prison where he didn't care if he lived or died, if he had her waiting in the wings I doubt he could achieve it. It's the same reason he destroyed everything. I also think she would try to make frank just leave with her if he explained he was going on a suicide mission
 
On why frank didn't explain to Jessie the reasons I thought was because he need the same mental attitude he had in prison where he didn't care if he lived or died, if he had her waiting in the wings I doubt he could achieve it. It's the same reason he destroyed everything. I also think she would try to make frank just leave with her if he explained he was going on a suicide mission

That's an interesting observation. I didn't think about that.

So what now then? Now that he has successfully accomplished his mission does he go find her?
 
LOL. So why exactly did you think that you wouldn't be into this one?

I remember seeing the trailer and thinking that it would be right up your alley.



I don't see why he wouldn't go back and find his wife and kid. I mean, what the fuck else is he going to do? It's not like he has anything else going on in his life.

Well, its hard to explain what people like and don't like. I've seen guys praise 4 time cheater Josh Barnett and they love him but want Bones suspended for life. Why? What people like and don't like can be hard to quantify. You could say, well Bones is a dick and he crashes his car. Fine, I'll give you another one. How about the fan that drools all over the shit talking Diaz brothers but hates Conor McGregor. Why? What I'm saying is, I have no idea why the film didn't appeal to me. It just didn't.

I was wrong though. Caan is great in his performance and the story really worked for me. At the end I don't think he went back for his wife. He took his dream photo card and threw it away when he blew up his businesses. It wasn't the way he envisioned it so he just didn't want it if it couldn't be the way he envisioned. When Leo and Co. killed his partner he snapped back into 'Prison Frank" and prison Frank doesn't care about anything, nothing matters.

I'm also a big fan of not using CGI.
 
If your wondering what happened to frank there's a scene in heat were neil is getting info on hanna from voights character and he says something like you remember that psycho frankie something( can't remember his last name) from Chicago, hanna took down his crew and killed him. Very likely this is frank from thief.

We should find out for sure because manns co writing a heat prequel and its gonna have Hannas time in Chicago
 
Well, its hard to explain what people like and don't like. I've seen guys praise 4 time cheater Josh Barnett and they love him but want Bones suspended for life. Why? What people like and don't like can be hard to quantify. You could say, well Bones is a dick and he crashes his car. Fine, I'll give you another one. How about the fan that drools all over the shit talking Diaz brothers but hates Conor McGregor. Why? What I'm saying is, I have no idea why the film didn't appeal to me. It just didn't.

LOL. Fair enough.

I was wrong though. Caan is great in his performance and the story really worked for me.

I kept comparing it to To Live and Die in LA as I was watching it.

Out of curiosity, how do you think Thief compares to that one?

At the end I don't think he went back for his wife. He took his dream photo card and threw it away when he blew up his businesses. It wasn't the way he envisioned it so he just didn't want it if it couldn't be the way he envisioned. When Leo and Co. killed his partner he snapped back into 'Prison Frank" and prison Frank doesn't care about anything, nothing matters.

Throwing the card away did seem like a statement. (On a related note, I felt like it would've been more effective if he had burned it. He was right there by a fire anyway.)

I just don't know what he does now. Does he give up on his dreamed-of life? Just accept that he's a career criminal?

That's just not totally satisfying to me.
 
That's an interesting observation. I didn't think about that.

So what now then? Now that he has successfully accomplished his mission does he go find her?
Well I guess that's upto you. On the commentary caan thinks he goes back and finds Jessie, Mann thinks he would go back to safe cracking and his dream is dead( I think been ages $
 
Mann's co-writing a Heat prequel and its gonna have Hanna's time in Chicago.

Interestingly (sadly?), my understanding is that this Heat prequel is going to be released only in the form of a novel, not a movie.

Are you aware of that?
 
LOL. Fair enough.



I kept comparing it to To Live and Die in LA as I was watching it.

Out of curiosity, how do you think Thief compares to that one?



Throwing the card away did seem like a statement. (On a related note, I felt like it would've been more effective if he had burned it. He was right there by a fire anyway.)

I just don't know what he does now. Does he give up on his dreamed-of life? Just accept that he's a career criminal?

That's just not totally satisfying to me.
Personally l like not knowing, just him walking off into the night.

I actually really don't want it to be the same frank in heat. I prefer it left ambiguous. But if it is Then its most likely he didn't get Jessie back and goes back to safe busting

Also imo manhunter is a better double feature with to live and die in la
 
Also imo manhunter is a better double feature with to live and die in la

William Petersen double-feature FTW, amirite?

I'll have to get around to Manhunter soon. Shit, I might even watch it tonight.
 
On why frank didn't explain to Jessie the reasons I thought was because he need the same mental attitude he had in prison where he didn't care if he lived or died, if he had her waiting in the wings I doubt he could achieve it. It's the same reason he destroyed everything. I also think she would try to make frank just leave with her if he explained he was going on a suicide mission
This is what I took from his actions of just destroying everything and moving on. Honestly I like this flick, but I thought the acting was a bit over the top for Jimmy Caan. The ending kind of felt lazy to me; even charles bronson movies had the ending with him trying to do the right thing and walk away with his family. I thought it was just a way to shoehorn a little bit more destruction.
 
William Petersen double-feature FTW, amirite?

I'll have to get around to Manhunter soon. Shit, I might even watch it tonight.
That( though he is in thief too) and they both have 80s pop soundtracks and are about obsessed cops/secret service against trying to get their man.

I think thief and heat are a good double feature
 
This is what I took from his actions of just destroying everything and moving on. Honestly I like this flick, but I thought the acting was a bit over the top for Jimmy Caan. The ending kind of felt lazy to me; even charles bronson movies had the ending with him trying to do the right thing and walk away with his family. I thought it was just a way to shoehorn a little bit more destruction.
Personally I loved caan in this. I don't think they shoe horned it, it sort of builds to it to me. From the dinner scene to everything being to good to be true then ultimately that being proved right. The ending was really the only destruction in the film unless you count the second safe cracking
 
LOL. Fair enough.



I kept comparing it to To Live and Die in LA as I was watching it.

Out of curiosity, how do you think Thief compares to that one?



Throwing the card away did seem like a statement. (On a related note, I felt like it would've been more effective if he had burned it. He was right there by a fire anyway.)

I just don't know what he does now. Does he give up on his dreamed-of life? Just accept that he's a career criminal?

That's just not totally satisfying to me.

Well yea, to live and die in L.A. and as I said, later heist movies came along like Ocean's 11 and the Bobby De Niro flick, The Score. It was similar in some ways to The Score because De Niro was a thief that also wanted to get out of the business and he was dealing with a partner that was trying to rob him. As far as To Live and Die in L.A. Yes, they certainly both smell of the 80's and they both went into detail about how these crimes were being committed which adds to the films in a big way. Part of the attraction is to see how these guys are pulling off these robberies.

As far as the end not being satisfying, it was reminiscent of the end scene of No Country for Old Men when Anton the psycho with the coin crashes his car then limps off down the sidewalk.
 
If your wondering what happened to frank there's a scene in heat were neil is getting info on hanna from voights character and he says something like you remember that psycho frankie something( can't remember his last name) from Chicago, hanna took down his crew and killed him. Very likely this is frank from thief.

We should find out for sure because manns co writing a heat prequel and its gonna have Hannas time in Chicago

<TheWire1>
 
As far as To Live and Die in L.A. Yes, they certainly both smell of the 80's and they both went into detail about how these crimes were being committed which adds to the films in a big way. Part of the attraction is to see how these guys are pulling off these robberies.

I enjoyed both, but I think I found To Live and Die in LA more entertaining as a whole, largely due to the more consistent pacing.

As far as the end not being satisfying, it was reminiscent of the end scene of No Country for Old Men when Anton the psycho with the coin crashes his car then limps off down the sidewalk.

I guess the difference for me between your two examples is that at the end of No Country I wasn't invested in any particular ending happening. So I was happy to accept anything.

But with Thief, I was invested in seeing him take care of his situation and then reunite with his woman and child.
 
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