Sam Harris and Ezra Klein podcast (Race/IQ, ID politics, Political Correctness)

Fawlty

Fawlty

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First a word of praise for their attempt to settle this, however it turns out.




Some background.


Recently, Harris baited Klein with this tweet while sniggering with Charles Murray:




The topic came up because of a NYT opinion piece- by the unfortunately named David Reich- that revolves around this dangerous question:

I am worried that well-meaning people who deny the possibility of substantial biological differences among human populations are digging themselves into an indefensible position, one that will not survive the onslaught of science. I am also worried that whatever discoveries are made — and we truly have no idea yet what they will be — will be cited as “scientific proof” that racist prejudices and agendas have been correct all along, and that those well-meaning people will not understand the science well enough to push back against these claims.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/opinion/sunday/genetics-race.html

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Note that Harris has a history with Vox, where he felt unfairly maligned in this piece about his show with Murray:

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...murray-race-iq-sam-harris-science-free-speech

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Klein then takes Harris to task in the following Vox piece, with an emphasis on the disingenuous nature of the dangerous question:

What bothered me most about Harris’s conversation with Murray was the framing. There is nothing more seductive than “forbidden knowledge.” But for two white men to spend a few hours discussing why black Americans are, as a group, less intelligent than whites isn’t a courageous stand in the context of American history; it’s a common one.
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https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...ace-iq-forbidden-knowledge-podcast-bell-curve

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Harris and Klein argue it out over e-mails, which Sam takes it upon himself to publish, in a fit of bad judgement:

https://samharris.org/ezra-klein-editor-chief/

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They agree to do a podcast, linked in the OP

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Klein publishes a transcript of the podcast, which you can read here:

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/9/17210248/sam-harris-ezra-klein-charles-murray-transcript-podcast
 
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Why didn’t this come up on the podcast list on the drive home

Ezra is a cunt though. I’m sure this’ll go well. Should be good listening.
 
I'm not familiar with Klein, but Sam Harris is a boring dolt. He's basically like a love child of Jill Stein and Eddie Bravo, who smoked a bunch of weed and developed a paranoia high and an immature sensitivity to criticism.
 
I listened to it. Ezra has a level of equivocation not usually seen this side of Bill Belichick. He rarely addressed Sam's questions directly.

Sam needs to stop being so sensitive. He should've been able to tell after the first email exchange that Ezra wouldn't change his tune.
 
People shouldn't care what Ezra Klein believes, he is just a polemicist.

By the way, that Richard Lewontin mentioned in the NYT editorial was an idiot but also the answer to what will happen as genetic information about intelligence comes to light.
His argument was basically that since difference within groups was bigger than difference between groups, race was not real.
Another way to put it is that the Dutch have an average height of 1.83m while Indonesians have an average height of 1.63m, a 20cm difference, but since you can find dutchmen ranging from 1.50m to 2.00m, a 0.5m difference, and you can also find Indonesians covering about the same amount of variance the 20cm difference is not enough to prove height difference between groups is real.
If genetic data proves that the Japanese are simply more intelligent than the Koreans they will say you can still find a dumb japanese and a very smart korean and that's what matters, because the gap between the dumbest and the smartest japanese is much bigger than the gap between the japanese and the koreans.
 
I haven’t listened to this particular podcast but I like Sam Harris and am a big fan of his. I think he’s a great voice to have on the left as someone who is a voice of reason and logic.

From what I knew before this podcast though I would have been shocked if he had of been able to reason with Klein and end up on the same page.
 
Who are either of these people and want are they discussing?
 
Cuauhtemoc said:
People shouldn't care what Ezra Klein believes, he is just a polemicist.

By the way, that Richard Lewontin mentioned in the NYT editorial was an idiot but also the answer to what will happen as genetic information about intelligence comes to light.
His argument was basically that since difference within groups was bigger than difference between groups, race was not real.
Another way to put it is that the Dutch have an average height of 1.83m while Indonesians have an average height of 1.63m, a 20cm difference, but since you can find dutchmen ranging from 1.50m to 2.00m, a 0.5m difference, and you can also find Indonesians covering about the same amount of variance the 20cm difference is not enough to prove height difference between groups is real.
If genetic data proves that the Japanese are simply more intelligent than the Koreans they will say you can still find a dumb japanese and a very smart korean and that's what matters, because the gap between the dumbest and the smartest japanese is much bigger than the gap between the japanese and the koreans.
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Get a shitload of kids...all the same...with same education....teach them, exact same way...Same culture/..Very similar parents...and if the Japanese are smarter, then you have a point.(impossible test but you see my point)


or proof that japanese kids from the getgo, have more brain neurons than everybody else....then you have a point.


Sorry but so far, Im not impressed by the evidence.
 
Pretty bad conversation. They completely talked past each other.

Harris started the conversation because he was being accused of junk science and pseudoscience because he had Charles Murray on the podcast. Harris had him on because people on college campuses don't think Murray should be able to speak on a college campus and took action to prevent him from being heard.

Klein said saying blacks have a lower IQ mean has lead to a lot of problems in the past. Harris is ignorant for not knowing that most people who don't like Murray do not like him because of the public policies he advocates.

The thing is Harris is all for equal opportunity and repeatedly says that you cannot judge an individual based upon a mean of a subgroup. Harris said that you can not be a racist and still not support policies such as affirmative action.

That is lost on Klein who is too focused on saying Harris is too sensitive. Harris should have more blacks on the podcast who can speak about racism.

They talked about identity politics and Klein accused Harris of having his own identity politics, which I didn't really understand.

I did like Harris bringing up that blacks from West Africa dominate the 100 meters and Ethiopians and Kenyans from East Africa dominate the marathon. It is something I have pointed to in the past, so I appreciated him bringing that point up.

Really in the end they probably support the same public policies.
 
The bottomline is that Klein thought the Flynn is worried that if people think blacks have a lower IQ that it would make people feel justified not to do anything to make it so there is equal opportunity.

I think Harris is influence by this Pinker clip where Pinker said that if you ignore what data shows people will see the data eventually and distrust the left and there will be backlash. Pinker argues that it better to present the data and provide context.



Maybe Klein thinks he is trying to look at the data and provide context. But he does a shit job.
 
Best to listen to the last 8 minutes of the Klein and Harris podcast. It sums up everything. The rest is just a repeat over and over of that.
 
Harris is tough to listen to on video; a podcast of him must be up there with whale songs and gentle rain sleep aids.
 
Anung Un Rama said:
Harris is tough to listen to on video; a podcast of him must be up there with whale songs and gentle rain sleep aids.
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I just read the transcript for that reason, besides not wanting to take the time to listen to it. Its just so boring.
 
Anung Un Rama said:
Harris is tough to listen to on video; a podcast of him must be up there with whale songs and gentle rain sleep aids.
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It's hard to get over the juxtaposition of the show being called "waking up"
 
Sad to see that science has been overrun by politics now. The search for truth should overpower our desire not to offend people.
 
GOATER said:
Get a shitload of kids...all the same...with same education....teach them, exact same way...Same culture/..Very similar parents...and if the Japanese are smarter, then you have a point.(impossible test but you see my point)


or proof that japanese kids from the getgo, have more brain neurons than everybody else....then you have a point.


Sorry but so far, Im not impressed by the evidence.
Click to expand...
thats called Jews and it’s real.
 
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