Question about joint locks and self defense

[Drew Foster]

I never post about self defense, but I had a question.

I know there's a lot of wisdom about the importance of choking people in real life situations because soe people might not ever give up, or tap out. So, what happens in a real fight if someone does tap out to an armbar, or the arm just breaks?

What's the proper way to disengage? Genuinely curious. Do you stand up and get the hell out? Do you wait for law enforcement and hope they don't get back up and try to attack you with a mangled limb? If you shred their ACL on a heel hook, but they still get up and try to fight, do you just re-engage if you have to?

I'd be scared injuring someone and then fleeing the scene. Would you just hold the position but do no further damage until help comes? I guess that could be 5 seconds or 5 minutes.

I'm sure there aren't hard and fast rules, but and I think a vascular restraint (blood choke) is the best option, and I'd tell the police I applied a vascular restraint, but if that's not in the cards, what do you do?

 

[Se4n]

I would just maintain position but not do further damage until the police come.

 

[Codger]

I think these things are entirely situational. If the guy jumped you in an alley and you're scared he might attack again if you let him go then you'd be wise to break it and/or give him some other injuries that will stop him doing so.

If there is a crowd around who are on your side then you might want to call for help and hold him until it comes.

If it's a pub fight then you might judge it's OK to tell him you'll let him up but if he tries it again then the next time you'll break it. I've had a drunk guy have swing at me and I tripped him easily, knelt on his chest to hold him down and poked my finger on his forehead saying "I could **** you up right now but I'm not interested. Shall we just get on with having a nice evening then?" and I could tell he knew he'd bitten off more than he could chew. I let him up, shook his hand and that was that.

You'd also need to judge how likely you are to beat him if you let him up. If it was a massive struggle and you were lucky to catch the armlock then that's different to if you found it a breeze and can pick and choose a different sub or some GnP if he comes back for more.

Totally depends.

I'm not convinced that using the words to "vascular restraint" is going to change much with the police

 

[mattemate]

My friend and old training partner (weighed 145-155) got into it with a party with a guy that was 270+. Got an armbar and followed through on it. The dude was done.

 

[My little Tony]

Why not choke him out and say it was accident? Assuming there's nobody else there that is.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

I'd only use a joint lock in a street fight if my intent was, and the situation justified, breaking it as badly as possible in order to end the fight or at least bias the rest of it heavily in my favour. If you want to pin someone then use a pinning technique, holding someone in an armbar position is completely contingent on your willingness to follow through with breaking their arm.

 

[Drew Foster]

I'm not convinced that using the words to "vascular restraint" is going to change much with the police

I'm not sure it would either. I just know that I'd prefer to use language that law enforcement themselves use. If I just say that I "choked" a guy, I'd be more worried about consequences than saying I have experience and applied a neck restraint/vascular restraint/etc.

I don't think that guarantees that I won't get arrested or get in trouble. With all the stuff about "choke holds" in the media, I'm certainly not admitting to "choking" anybody.

 

[Codger]

I'd only use a joint lock in a street fight if my intent was, and the situation justified, breaking it as badly as possible in order to end the fight or at least bias the rest of it heavily in my favour. If you want to pin someone then use a pinning technique, holding someone in an armbar position is completely contingent on your willingness to follow through with breaking their arm.

Armbars are one thing but kimuras and omoplatas can serve the dual purpose can't they? Not many untrained people getting out from a well secured omoplata and you can always ruin their shoulder if it escalates.

 

[ozyabbas]

I think pinning or slapping them around till they give up is the safest option.

If you break their limbs it may lead to a lawsuit, arrest or may not stop them at all.

With chokes you will most likely have to stick around to make sure they are ok or even help resuscitate them. What if they end up dying of some complication. You could also get arrested.

A good pin till they calm down or someone breaks it up is probably the safest route.

Like someone else said, it depends on the situation. I would think that the most likely incident to occur where you would end up using jiu jitsu would be in some challenge fight in a pub, club or similar situation. You would be fighting against one other person.

Its a good question and its something I thought about. Of all the things I have learnt and do it jiu jitsu, how much of it would be applicable for self defense and how much of it would lead to me getting some kind of prison record which would make me unemployable in my profession.

 

[Gojujutsu]

If you follow the joint lock to completion then he'd just have less ability to fight off a choke afterwards right?

 

[Matsukaze]

I would think that the gift wrap from top position would be most beneficial in a street type encounter.

 

[Balto]

You should get out of there as soon as you can.

Why do you want to stick around? To tell the cops your side of the story when they arrive?

Talking to the cops at the scene is never a good idea. Leave the scene, and you won't have that problem. There is no obligation to stay at the scene. In fact it probably slightly hurts your self-defense claim, since if you truly feared for your safety, you'd probably flee as soon as possible. At the very least, a prosecutor can argue this way.

If somehow you do end up running into the cops, don't say anything. Keep your mouth shut. Invoke your First Amendment right. Don't say shit until you get a lawyer.

There is no legal penalty for leaving the scene of a self-defense situation and then staying silent if questioned. Let your lawyer figure it out if it comes to that. It will ALWAYS be better if you do this.

Trying to "get the cop on your side" is the absolute worst thing you can possibly do in this case. Ask any defense attorney. What you say on the scene will become evidence in the case and likely used against you. Say nothing, and you have not added any evidence.

You can always testify to add additional evidence in your defense after the fact. Your lawyer will let you know if this is a good idea. One thing cannot you do is take back anything dumb you said at the scene, under stress, before you talked to a lawyer.

So leave and say nothing to the cops. Get a lawyer before you say anything if it comes to that. Do this every time.

 

[Balto]

Also, if you talk to a cop friend, they will probably advise you the opposite of the above. This is because it makes the cop's job a lot easier if you talk at the scene.

But their gain is your loss. Cops are always sorting these things out at the scene, trying to play judge and jury about who is at fault. But it's a very arbitrary process that gives you no rights. So it's always better for you if you refuse to play along.

I am pretty pro law enforcement and in fact work in the field for my job, but when it comes to something like this, you need to look out for yourself first. Take the advice of defense attorneys (shut your mouth) over the advice of any cops (tell me what happened and I promise I'll be fair).

 

[Ippwnage]

I never post about self defense, but I had a question.

I know there's a lot of wisdom about the importance of choking people in real life situations because soe people might not ever give up, or tap out. So, what happens in a real fight if someone does tap out to an armbar, or the arm just breaks?

What's the proper way to disengage? Genuinely curious. Do you stand up and get the hell out? Do you wait for law enforcement and hope they don't get back up and try to attack you with a mangled limb? If you shred their ACL on a heel hook, but they still get up and try to fight, do you just re-engage if you have to?

I'd be scared injuring someone and then fleeing the scene. Would you just hold the position but do no further damage until help comes? I guess that could be 5 seconds or 5 minutes.

I'm sure there aren't hard and fast rules, but and I think a vascular restraint (blood choke) is the best option, and I'd tell the police I applied a vascular restraint, but if that's not in the cards, what do you do?

do what you have to do and knock them the fuck out and run. You don't know shit. for all you know the guy has a pack of buddies coming to meet him just where you happened to fight, or the guy might have some unknown weapon he may pull, or the cops may come and mistake you for being black and shoot your ass.
#1 priority is getting out alive

 

[JohnSouth]

You should get out of there as soon as you can.

Why do you want to stick around? To tell the cops your side of the story when they arrive?

Talking to the cops at the scene is never a good idea. Leave the scene, and you won't have that problem. There is no obligation to stay at the scene. In fact it probably slightly hurts your self-defense claim, since if you truly feared for your safety, you'd probably flee as soon as possible. At the very least, a prosecutor can argue this way.

If somehow you do end up running into the cops, don't say anything. Keep your mouth shut. Invoke your First Amendment right. Don't say shit until you get a lawyer.

There is no legal penalty for leaving the scene of a self-defense situation and then staying silent if questioned. Let your lawyer figure it out if it comes to that. It will ALWAYS be better if you do this.

Trying to "get the cop on your side" is the absolute worst thing you can possibly do in this case. Ask any defense attorney. What you say on the scene will become evidence in the case and likely used against you. Say nothing, and you have not added any evidence.

You can always testify to add additional evidence in your defense after the fact. Your lawyer will let you know if this is a good idea. One thing cannot you do is take back anything dumb you said at the scene, under stress, before you talked to a lawyer.

So leave and say nothing to the cops. Get a lawyer before you say anything if it comes to that. Do this every time.

This is good advice.

I have had really good luck with talking to the cops the few times I did but I think I have a knack for it.

I would much rather not be there if I can avoid it, far lower chance of arrest especially if no one is seriously hurt.

That is why it is good not to seriously hurt someone if you can help it.

 

[Einarr]

I've broken an arm in self-defence. It was fine - never even seen a pig at my door.

 

[No1 Stunna]

Rener discussed this on a Gracie breakdown, the one with the dude getting jumped on the LA freeway.

He said you explode into the submission and flow on with strikes / submissions until fight is over. Basically, make the guy fight on with torn arm or shoulder and use it to your advantage, think of guy on PCP getting shot 6 times and still coming forward.

 

[dmwalking]

I would just maintain position but not do further damage until the police come.

Same. The beauty of BJJ is that you can control the situation if you're the dominant fighter. If the cops come, you look like the good guy while the guy spazzing because you embarrassed him looks like the assailant.

The other option is that in a self defense situation, you can ruin their joints and inflict enough pain to escape the situation. You don't want to break anything if you're not in danger. It will be excessive and you'll go to jail. Don't rain punches from mount either unless you also have a busted up face showing that you had to truly fight for your safety.

But hell no, do not let go. Hold on until someone can help break up the fight, or until the cops get there.

 

[RTD1]

You do whatever you have to do to stop the threat. If you break one limb and he stops attacking you, then you get up and run. If he keeps attacking you, then you break the other limb. So on and so forth. Anyone saying to hold position and wait for the police is literally retarded. You stop the threat and then you GTFO as quickly and safely as possible.

 

[Bayonet]

Really depends on whether this is "self defense" against some violent weirdo in an alley or Drunken Uncle Lou throwin' hands at the family barbecue.

If the former, I'd say throw hard and book it. Not sure why you'd need to joint lock, but if you had to, get damage done quickly and then run.

If the latter, foot sweep into kesa gatame. Hold until Lou gets maudlin, then let him up for apologies and drunk-hugs.

If you're worried about legality, I think ANY choke or jointlock is on the losing end of that argument when compared to a throw. What is the argument going to sound like? "He attacked me. I was scared I would die, so I broke his arm and held him until you came." Or. "He attacked me. I was scared so I tripped him and fuckin ran!"