Question about joint locks and self defense

I guess the advice you need will have to come from a defense attorney and law enforcement officer. That would also have to be for your particular country and state.
 
Look at the Penal Code where you live. Don't assume. For example NY:

S 121.11 Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation.
A person is guilty of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation when, with intent to impede the normal breathing or
circulation of the blood of another person, he or she:
a. applies pressure on the throat or neck of such person; or
b. blocks the nose or mouth of such person.
Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation
is a class A misdemeanor.

S 121.12 Strangulation in the second degree.

A person is guilty of strangulation in the second degree when he or
she commits the crime of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation, as defined in section 121.11 of this article, and thereby
causes stupor, loss of consciousness for any period of time, or any
other physical injury or impairment.
Strangulation in the second degree is a class D felony.
*Class D Violent Felony

S 121.13 Strangulation in the first degree.

A person is guilty of strangulation in the first degree when he or she
commits the crime of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation, as defined in section 121.11 of this article, and thereby
causes serious physical injury to such other person.
Strangulation in the first degree is a class C felony.
*Class C Violent Felony

S 120.00 Assault in the third degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the third degree when:
1. With intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes
such injury to such person or to a third person; or
2. He recklessly causes physical injury to another person; or
3. With criminal negligence, he causes physical injury to another
person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument.
Assault in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.

etc..

See these Articles as well:
35.10 Justification; use of physical force generally.
35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person
35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and
in defense of a person in the course of burglary.

35.25 Justification; use of physical force to prevent or terminate
larceny or criminal mischief.


They tell you specific details of when you are justified.
 
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What is this, the SherLaw forum?

1) You ONLY fight when your life is in danger. If you're not in danger, you walk away.
2) If your life is in danger, you shouldn't give a rat's ass about "Penal Codes". All that shit is irrelevant if you end up dead.
 
What kind of armbar are you talking about? Classic arm bar?

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If so, I honestly don't think I'd use that in some self defense situation. Rather not be engaged on the ground like that in most unknown situations. And if it was a place where I felt safe doing so, a pinning technique would probably be better.

Unless someone is on some mind altering substance, just taking a joint lock to near break without breaking can take the fight out of them. Most people only get into a fight to show off and don't really want to. Just saving face in front of your boys. If it is in the proverbial dark alley where some guy wants to really hurt you, then I'd follow Balto's advice. Break it, leave the guy hurting on the ground and run like hell.
 
I'd only use a joint lock in a street fight if my intent was, and the situation justified, breaking it as badly as possible in order to end the fight or at least bias the rest of it heavily in my favour. If you want to pin someone then use a pinning technique, holding someone in an armbar position is completely contingent on your willingness to follow through with breaking their arm.

As someone who has been in this situation, the above is the best response.
 
Look at the Penal Code where you live. Don't assume. For example NY:

S 121.11 Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation.
A person is guilty of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation when, with intent to impede the normal breathing or
circulation of the blood of another person, he or she:
a. applies pressure on the throat or neck of such person; or
b. blocks the nose or mouth of such person.
Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation
is a class A misdemeanor.

S 121.12 Strangulation in the second degree.

A person is guilty of strangulation in the second degree when he or
she commits the crime of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation, as defined in section 121.11 of this article, and thereby
causes stupor, loss of consciousness for any period of time, or any
other physical injury or impairment.
Strangulation in the second degree is a class D felony.
*Class D Violent Felony

S 121.13 Strangulation in the first degree.

A person is guilty of strangulation in the first degree when he or she
commits the crime of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation, as defined in section 121.11 of this article, and thereby
causes serious physical injury to such other person.
Strangulation in the first degree is a class C felony.
*Class C Violent Felony

S 120.00 Assault in the third degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the third degree when:
1. With intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes
such injury to such person or to a third person; or
2. He recklessly causes physical injury to another person; or
3. With criminal negligence, he causes physical injury to another
person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument.
Assault in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.

etc..

See these Articles as well:
35.10 Justification; use of physical force generally.
35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person
35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and
in defense of a person in the course of burglary.

35.25 Justification; use of physical force to prevent or terminate
larceny or criminal mischief.


They tell you specific details of when you are justified.

note: other person who attacked you have to press charges that you choked him out and walked away instead of putting him in a coma.

speeding is illegal, but i do it every day. selling drugs is illegal but i did it every day for 8 years.
 
You take what's given and do what it takes to stand up and disengage.

If you get tackled and suddenly have the guy's sleeve and turn your hips and arm bar him and it fucks his arm up, then so be it. But you want to disengage and retreat as quickly as possible.

If you grab him, have your hips over, then hold the position for a bit and then fuck his arm up, that's different.


If you are subduing a mass shooter, that's different than if you're defending yourself against a street fight attacker. Mass shooter, dislocate his arm immediately and hold him.

Individual attacker, take what you can in the moment until you can disengage and flee.
 
You're asking for trouble if you stick around for the police.

Even if they do not charge you, often he can and sue you for damages.

Right or wrong, you'll have to go to court and it will cost ya.
 
You should get out of there as soon as you can.

Why do you want to stick around? To tell the cops your side of the story when they arrive?

Talking to the cops at the scene is never a good idea. Leave the scene, and you won't have that problem. There is no obligation to stay at the scene. In fact it probably slightly hurts your self-defense claim, since if you truly feared for your safety, you'd probably flee as soon as possible. At the very least, a prosecutor can argue this way.

If somehow you do end up running into the cops, don't say anything. Keep your mouth shut. Invoke your First Amendment right. Don't say shit until you get a lawyer.

There is no legal penalty for leaving the scene of a self-defense situation and then staying silent if questioned. Let your lawyer figure it out if it comes to that. It will ALWAYS be better if you do this.

Trying to "get the cop on your side" is the absolute worst thing you can possibly do in this case. Ask any defense attorney. What you say on the scene will become evidence in the case and likely used against you. Say nothing, and you have not added any evidence.

You can always testify to add additional evidence in your defense after the fact. Your lawyer will let you know if this is a good idea. One thing cannot you do is take back anything dumb you said at the scene, under stress, before you talked to a lawyer.

So leave and say nothing to the cops. Get a lawyer before you say anything if it comes to that. Do this every time.

I always post this whenever the topic comes up. Never, ever talk to the police.

[YT]6wXkI4t7nuc[/YT]
 
Also, if you talk to a cop friend, they will probably advise you the opposite of the above. This is because it makes the cop's job a lot easier if you talk at the scene.

But their gain is your loss. Cops are always sorting these things out at the scene, trying to play judge and jury about who is at fault. But it's a very arbitrary process that gives you no rights. So it's always better for you if you refuse to play along.

I am pretty pro law enforcement and in fact work in the field for my job, but when it comes to something like this, you need to look out for yourself first. Take the advice of defense attorneys (shut your mouth) over the advice of any cops (tell me what happened and I promise I'll be fair).

That's crazy. You're exactly right. I got the advice FROM a cop friend of mine. We trained together for a long time and he was like "yeah, just stay at the scene, use the following language, etc."

obviously I'd worry about being shot or roughed up thinking I was the suspect, or wanting to cooperate to make things easier. I always just thought my friend's advice would be in my best interest, but now I guess I don't know.

I watched that video about not talking and I'm taking it to heart.
 
That's crazy. You're exactly right. I got the advice FROM a cop friend of mine. We trained together for a long time and he was like "yeah, just stay at the scene, use the following language, etc."

obviously I'd worry about being shot or roughed up thinking I was the suspect, or wanting to cooperate to make things easier. I always just thought my friend's advice would be in my best interest, but now I guess I don't know.

I watched that video about not talking and I'm taking it to heart.

I doubt your friend was trying to mislead you. He was just giving you advice from his perspective.

The thing is that the cop perspective is not the perspective you need to protect yourself in this kind of situation. You need the defense attorney perspective. That perspective is "shut your mouth and call me immediately" for just about any encounter with the police.
 
Breaking something is usually a Class C felony assault.

Why not choke them?
If needed why let go of the arm after the elbow break?

As far as taking the armbar then doing the break, why let go? Unless he gave up. If you needed to break it in the legal sense. There are a lot more joints in that arm and shoulder than just a elbow hyperflexion. Your shoe is also right next to or on his face. Jeesh.
 
limbs? the fuck no... back and RNC all day long.
 
I don't know that I'd full on break someone's joint, but there's enough leeway between breaking and just heavily straining a joint to have some control while both will take the fight out of most people.

Usually when you hear the initial yelp, you haven't actually maimed them, you've just sprained the joint to some degree.
 
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