Please Critique my Regime-Aiming for 6-8kg weight gain

[selfcritical]

Total volume is the most important, but proximity to failure seems to have an independent effect, balanced by massively larger fatigue as you actually get to mechanical failure.

 

[JimRussel]

 

[blackhat]

Total volume is all that really matters. There are a bunch of ways to gain mass. Working with lighter weight in higher rep ranges possibly allows people to get in more volume over time though with a smaller risk of injury and/or burnout.

But it's important to note that working in lower and more intense rep ranges probably does predispose a person, especially if they are new to lifting, to more injury risk and possibly longer recovery between sessions. I don't really think that's debatable, but maybe some people here will disagree.

Let's just all stop pretending that Sheiko/531/Stronglifts are the holy grail of getting big. They absolutely work, but there are plenty of ways to gain mass without some of the caveats of intense strength work.

What needs to be considered in this specific circumstance are the OP's goals, which seem to be more oriented towards sports performance for BJJ. In that case, some strength and power work is absolutely necessary and a pure hypertrophy program alone wouldn't be ideal. A mixture of both types of work would probably be ideal in his specific case. In particular, I would say he could use more upper body hypertrophy work just because (in my experience) the upper body is a little more prone to injury, a little more complex in terms of joint movement, and as a result a little less responsive to only lower rep ranges and fewer exercises.

Total volume is the most important, but proximity to failure seems to have an independent effect, balanced by massively larger fatigue as you actually get to mechanical failure.

I'm still a bit confused about total volume being most important. I did some research but I didn't find any answers... almost all the research I did pointed to high rep / high volume training builds the most muscle mass.

Are there any good articles you guys could link about volume is what matters most and high rep or low rep is secondary when it comes to building muscle? I'm definitely open to that being true, but I can't find any information about it.

Also I was doing some comparisons.. I usually do about 16500 total volume in my deadlift sessions.. I do mainly high rep work and it takes 40-45 minutes, if I were to do the same volume with low reps it would take minimum 2+ hours. So it terms of efficiency, high rep training seems to be a lot better if you're short on time.

I also remember reading if you do intense weight training that goes for over 1 hour and you're not on any kind of PEDs your muscles will start to go into a catabolic state? If it's true that's another reason to keep workouts short but intense if gaining muscle is the goal.

 

[j123]

I'm still a bit confused about total volume being most important. I did some research but I didn't find any answers... almost all the research I did pointed to high rep / high volume training builds the most muscle mass.

Are there any good articles you guys could link about volume is what matters most and high rep or low rep is secondary when it comes to building muscle? I'm definitely open to that being true, but I can't find any information about it.

Also I was doing some comparisons.. I usually do about 16500 total volume in my deadlift sessions.. I do mainly high rep work and it takes 40-45 minutes, if I were to do the same volume with low reps it would take minimum 2+ hours. So it terms of efficiency, high rep training seems to be a lot better if you're short on time.

More volume, the more total reps you can get in

eg.
Bench Press 3x8-12
Flat Bench 3x8-12
Dips 3x8-12

Total reps: 72-108

add 1 more set to each exercise (volume)

Total reps: 96 - 144

I also remember reading if you do intense weight training that goes for over 1 hour and you're not on any kind of PEDs your muscles will start to go into a catabolic state? If it's true that's another reason to keep workouts short but intense if gaining muscle is the goal.

Sounds like BS, I average 75-90min and have not been losing any sort of mass or strength. I also train at nights at the MMA gym and there's no problem there was well (1.5-2h).

 

[blackhat]

More volume, the more total reps you can get in

eg.
Bench Press 3x8-12
Flat Bench 3x8-12
Dips 3x8-12

Total reps: 72-108

add 1 more set to each exercise (volume)

Total reps: 96 - 144

For examples sake, lets say I'm doing 5000lbs total volume for deadlift:

High reps sets:

100x10 = 1000
200x10 = 2000
200x10 = 2000
-------------------
5000 total

Low rep sets:

100x5 = 500
200x5 = 1000
250x3 = 750
300x2 = 600
350x1 = 350
325x3 = 975
275x3 = 825
----------------
5000 total

It's my understanding high rep sets would work towards building muscle over strength, the low rep sets would build strength over muscle.

If all that matters is the amount of volume.. that means both the high and low rep workouts above would build the same amount of muscle.

That doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[selfcritical]

It gets a little bit complicated, because proximity to failure matters as well, and it's a lot easier to get close to failure when you can only do 5 reps at a given weight (a triple is not that far from your limits then), and because there are thresholds as well- unless you're using occlusion or going to failure, sets way below 60 percent of 1rm don't seem to give you much stimulus, even though you could obviously produce stupid high tonnage. I generally try to calculate volume in terms of "total number of working reps", that is , reps that are in the intensity range to illicit the adaptation i want.

 

[D Train]

To build muscle fast you want to do high rep ranges (8-12). You also want to get a good mind muscle connection and force a "pump" in your muscles (load your muscles with blood).

Don't focus on set programming so much as building the muscle connection, getting a pump, reaching failure. Worry about programming once you're an advanced lifter, as a newbie just have fun, start with 20 minute sessions and each week add more time until you reach 50 minutes.. try to focus on building up your body with perfect form.

The good thing about high rep ranges is it gives you more of a chance to build good form into your muscle memory. Starting off with a medium - heavy weight for squats and deadlift without a coach isn't a good idea. Make sure you film yourself to make sure your lower back isn't in a bad position.

-

When gaining muscle diet is KEY. Without excess calories you will gain extremely slowly if at all. Gradually work your way up past 3500 calories of healthy food per day. Don't worry about macros, just try to stuff your face with as much clean, healthy food as possible.

To put things in perspective of how fast you can gain weight.. I'm 6 feet tall and my body naturally stays around 165lbs. I got pneumonia and almost died and my weight dropped to 135. I started bulking and worked up to eating 4500-5000 calories a day, and within 8 months I was over 200 lbs (without much fat gain but my stomach was a bit bloated from all the food).

Your diet plus the quality and intensity of your training are the main factors which will determine how fast you reach your goals.

Serious question: how do you eat 5000 cal a day? I'm eating super clean doing a 40-40-20 split on my macros and I feel like I eat all the time and I rarely get to my 2400 cal goal.

 

[blackhat]

Serious question: how do you eat 5000 cal a day? I'm eating super clean doing a 40-40-20 split on my macros and I feel like I eat all the time and I rarely get to my 2400 cal goal.

Bulking for me is basically about force-feeding yourself even after you're not hungry. Gradually the size of your stomach will expand so it can hold more food.. that makes things less uncomfortable, but it still kinda sucks.

For breakfast I'd put 8-10 bananas with some greens and berries in a blender (sometimes I'd add protein). That's approx 1000-1200+ calories, I'd chug it down over 30-45 minutes.

For lunch and dinner I would usually eat a stir fry. Basically some vegetables, a big serving of meat (I only eat chicken, beef and salmon) and I'd eat a full 450g pack of high quality noodles. I forget how many calories are in a 450g pack of noodles, I think it's around 1800! plus another 250-400 calories for the meat + I often use shitloads of coconut oil so that's another 400 calories (3 TBSP).

For my post workout I'd take 4 scoops of precision big time gainer.. 950 calories, it has creatine, BCAAs, stacks of god knows what else lol.

That's minimum 4400 calories of food not including any snacks, cheat meals etc.

I never worried too much about macros since my body doesn't hold much fat and I don't care if I look bloated. I'd just focus on getting minimum 4500 calories a day mostly through healthy unprocessed foods. Each night I'd weigh myself after I'd just eaten dinner. If I didn't see the numbers go up from yesterday I'd eat more, take more gainer, or chug loads of water to inflate my weight. Basically just doing everything possible to get the number on the scale higher each night.

This definitely isn't a good approach for everyone, it works well for me though.

 

[selfcritical]

Serious question: how do you eat 5000 cal a day? I'm eating super clean doing a 40-40-20 split on my macros and I feel like I eat all the time and I rarely get to my 2400 cal goal.

Butter on everything. And olive oil.

 

[j123]

Serious question: how do you eat 5000 cal a day? I'm eating super clean doing a 40-40-20 split on my macros and I feel like I eat all the time and I rarely get to my 2400 cal goal.

Drink your calories?

Maybe I forgot if I asked, but are you in general not a very large guy? I'm not big by any means and I lean bulk at 3350 calories, even then I still feel a bit hungry after the day's done. Last week I passed out with a nasty hangover and didn't get a chance to eat my dinner and ended the day with 2600, I was hungry as fuck the next morning when I awoke.

 

[Chad R. Thundercock]

To beat the man, you must out-eat the man.

Here's a story about JM Blakely's insane diet regimen that helped him gain nearly 40 lbs in two months:

There was a time at the Old Westside gym where I couldn’t gain weight to save my fucking life.

There was this dude who trained there who could just put on weight like fucking magic. He’d go from 198 to 308 and then to 275 and back down to 198. And he was never fat. It was amazing.

I finally asked him one day how he did it.

“You mean I never told you the secret to gaining weight? Come outside and I’ll fill you in.”

Now remember, we’re at Westside Barbell. And this guy wants to go outside to talk so no one else can hear. Think about that for a minute. What the hell is he going to tell me? This must be some serious shit if we have to go outside, I thought.

So we get outside and he starts talking.

“For breakfast you need to eat four of those breakfast sandwiches from McDonalds. I don’t care which ones you get, but make sure to get four. Order four hash browns, too. Now grab two packs of mayonnaise and put them on the hash browns and then slip them into the sandwiches. Squish that shit down and eat. That’s your breakfast.”

At this point I’m thinking this guy is nuts. But he’s completely serious.

“For lunch you’re gonna eat Chinese food. Now I don’t want you eating that crappy stuff. You wanna get the stuff with MSG. None of that non-MSG bullshit. I don’t care what you eat but you have to sit down and eat for at least 45 minutes straight. You can’t let go of the fork. Eat until your eyes swell up and become slits and you start to look like the woman behind the counter.”

“For dinner you’re gonna order an extra-large pizza with everything on it. Literally everything. If you don’t like sardines, don’t put ’em on, but anything else that you like you have to load it on there. After you pay the delivery guy, I want you to take the pie to your coffee table, open that fucker up, and grab a bottle of oil. It can be olive oil, canola oil, whatever. Anything but motor oil. And I want you to pour that shit over the pie until half of the bottle is gone. Just soak the shit out of it.”

“Now before you lay into it, I want you to sit on your couch and just stare at that fucker. I want you to understand that that pizza right there is keeping you from your goals.”

This guy is in a zen-like state when he’s talking about this.

“Now you’re on the clock,” he continues. “After 20 minutes your brain is going to tell you you’re full. Don’t listen to that shit. You have to try and eat as much of the pizza as you can before that 20-minute mark. Double up pieces if you have to. I’m telling you now, you’re going to get three or four pieces in and you’re gonna want to quit. You fucking can’t quit. You have to sit on that couch until every piece is done.

And if you can’t finish it, don’t you ever come back to me and tell me you can’t gain weight. ’Cause I’m gonna tell you that you don’t give a fuck about getting bigger and you don’t care how much you lift!”

Did I do it? Hell yeah. Started the next day and did it for two months. Went from 260 pounds to 297 pounds. And I didn’t get much fatter. One of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life, though.

Makes me want to throw up.

 

[D Train]

Drink your calories?

Maybe I forgot if I asked, but are you in general not a very large guy? I'm not big by any means and I lean bulk at 3350 calories, even then I still feel a bit hungry after the day's done. Last week I passed out with a nasty hanger and didn't get a chance to eat my dinner and ended the day with 2600, I was hungry as fuck the next morning when I awoke.

Nah, I'm not big. 5'11, 165, 7.5%bf. I'm fit, but I just got serious about adding some size. I don't mind if it takes a while. I just gotta figure out how to get more clean calories, lol

 

[fightingrabbit]

Pretty evil I guess.

 

[j123]

Pretty evil I guess.

Wrong thread?

 

[ivorytusk]

FWIW i was in a similar position when i started BJJ- although i was probably a bit heavier. I initially f***ed about trying this program then that program blah blah blah not really having any direction.

once i started following a legit program with my target reps/weights set out for the whole cycle (12wks?) my PBs and overall condition rocketed. i forced myself to start with silly light weights and focused on form until it became more challenging.

i went from SS/5x5 >> madcow >> madcow adv >> 531 over the course of about 4 years.

great results and if it hadn't been for a back injury (from work) i would have been approaching 5,4,3,2 plate lifts (@~80kg) for the main 4 by now.

thats my 2 cents worth anyway

 

[JauntyAngle]

almost all the research I did pointed to high rep / high volume training builds the most muscle mass.

Can you link to some of the research you found?

What I have read shows that, overall, people haven't been able to empirically confirm the idea that any one rep range is better for hypertrophy. This article is a good summary:

http://strengtheory.com/hypertrophy-range-fact-fiction/

 

[aus101]

How tall are you? If you are short then 6-8 kilos of muscle might not be happening but it all depends on how filled out you are for your height atm. If you are 5'8 or above then yeah, low 70s lean should be pretty attainable (personally I'm 5'10 and will drop down to 70 kilos if I stop lifting, heaviest I've been is 86 or so bulked out, average usually about 75-78 lean).

 

[blackhat]

Can you link to some of the research you found?

What I have read shows that, overall, people haven't been able to empirically confirm the idea that any one rep range is better for hypertrophy. This article is a good summary:

http://strengtheory.com/hypertrophy-range-fact-fiction/

Pretty much all the articles I've read at bodybuilding.com say the 8-12 rep range is the most ideal for building muscle, also if you google "best rep range to build muscle" a lot of articles say the same. Plus the programming I got from a well trusted bodybuilding coach in my area was all in those rep ranges. Basically for each exercise you'd do 4 sets of medium/heavy weight for 10 reps, after completing the last set you'd drop the weight by 30-40% and bang out another set with no rest. It was insane and that was the newbie routine lol.

In that article you linked right at the top it says:

Now, before jumping in, I will note that the assumptions about lower reps/higher weights building more strength and higher rep/lower weights building more strength endurance have largely been validated. You can still gain strength with light weights/high reps and moderate weight/moderate reps, but strength gains are generally better with heavy, low-rep training. Conversely, you can build absolute muscular endurance (how many times you can move a set load, regardless of your 1rm) with low rep and moderate rep training, but you can build a lot more with high rep training, and high rep training is generally the only way to improve relative muscular endurance (how many times you can lift a certain percentage of your 1rm).

This paragraph above is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say. Low reps will build muscle, but not nearly as much as high reps, and vise-versa when it comes to strength.

Also this part of article is confusing me.. because it says 1-5 rep range only builds strength?

 

[Maxtheripper13]

Pretty much all the articles I've read at bodybuilding.com say the 8-12 rep range is the most ideal for building muscle, also if you google "best rep range to build muscle" a lot of articles say the same. Plus the programming I got from a well trusted bodybuilding coach in my area was all in those rep ranges. Basically for each exercise you'd do 4 sets of medium/heavy weight for 10 reps, after completing the last set you'd drop the weight by 30-40% and bang out another set with no rest. It was insane and that was the newbie routine lol.

In that article you linked right at the top it says:

Now, before jumping in, I will note that the assumptions about lower reps/higher weights building more strength and higher rep/lower weights building more strength endurance have largely been validated. You can still gain strength with light weights/high reps and moderate weight/moderate reps, but strength gains are generally better with heavy, low-rep training. Conversely, you can build absolute muscular endurance (how many times you can move a set load, regardless of your 1rm) with low rep and moderate rep training, but you can build a lot more with high rep training, and high rep training is generally the only way to improve relative muscular endurance (how many times you can lift a certain percentage of your 1rm).

This paragraph above is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say. Low reps will build muscle, but not nearly as much as high reps, and vise-versa when it comes to strength.

Also this part of article is confusing me.. because it says 1-5 rep range only builds strength?

While the above is the generally accept idea for rep ranges and training, it is a bit more complicated than that.

The 1-3 rep range is generally your accepted strength focus rep range, but for some reason 5 reps has slowly made it's way into that range also.The old 5x5 programs also came about as a good way to get a good blend of strength and mass. The 5 rep range allowed you to work in the vicinity of 85+% of your 1RM and 25 reps for multiple exercisies built up to a reasonable volume with multiple exercises.

8-12 while on your chart above as the greater hypertrophy range, would limit you to between 60-70% 1rm range, Yes you are getting more volume, but you are working at a much lower percentage and limiting yourself in the long run.

Because I am too lazy to type more I will simplify things.
What do you think will get you to your goals more effectively of the options below.

A. Increase back squat from 100kg - 200 kg, Bench press 80 kg - 140 kg, Deadlift 100kg-200kg. Most of this work would be done in the 3-5 rep range.

B. Work the above movements in the 8-12 rep range and work to failure everyday with minimal improvement.

I am starting to learn that consistent progressive training trumps intensity everytime.

 

[blackhat]

While the above is the generally accept idea for rep ranges and training, it is a bit more complicated than that.

The 1-3 rep range is generally your accepted strength focus rep range, but for some reason 5 reps has slowly made it's way into that range also.The old 5x5 programs also came about as a good way to get a good blend of strength and mass. The 5 rep range allowed you to work in the vicinity of 85+% of your 1RM and 25 reps for multiple exercisies built up to a reasonable volume with multiple exercises.

8-12 while on your chart above as the greater hypertrophy range, would limit you to between 60-70% 1rm range, Yes you are getting more volume, but you are working at a much lower percentage and limiting yourself in the long run.

Because I am too lazy to type more I will simplify things.
What do you think will get you to your goals more effectively of the options below.

A. Increase back squat from 100kg - 200 kg, Bench press 80 kg - 140 kg, Deadlift 100kg-200kg.

B. Work the above movements in the 8-12 rep range and work to failure everyday with minimal improvement.

I am starting to learn that consistent progressive training trumps intensity everytime.

If your goal is strength for a powerlifting comp it makes sense to work low reps, if your goal is mass and strength it's good to work both but mainly focus on high rep ranges IMO.

I brought my deadlift from around 200x8 @ 165lbs to 340x10 @ 185lbs in about 6 1/2 - 7 months doing 90% high rep ranges (I'd have to check my training notes for the exact numbers). Once I was nearing the end of my workout I'd do 1-2 sets of low reps then a couple back down sets of high reps again.

This video has some good info I've played around with in the past: