Partially torn acl

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by machomang, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. machomang Orange Belt

    machomang
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    Hey guys, my acl was partially torn over a month ago. My knee feels stable but I can't put my heel to my butt so I've been off the mats.

    I was just wondering if any of you guys have been in a similar situation and how long did it take for you to get back to training.
     
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  2. wufabufa Purple Belt

    wufabufa
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    Partially tore my ACL when I was 18. I was good to go after 8-10 weeks.....then again I was 18 and at that age you can bounce back from almost anything pretty quick. Ortho doc recommended glucosamine and chondroitin supplements and/or collagen supplements to give your body what it needs to repair itself. Are you doing PT or rehab for it? If not a quick google search for ACL rehab exercises/protocol will give you a good idea of what you can do to get yourself back in shape after it's healed up sufficiently.

    Jumping back into training is tempting but you don't want this to potentially become an ongoing situation. Good luck.
     
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  3. machomang Orange Belt

    machomang
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    Thanks for the response. Yeah I'm doing pt right now which is definitely helping my range of motion. There isn't much information on partial tears since that is apparently pretty rare.

    I've googled recovery times but only found 2 sites that gave a time frame. One said 2 months and another said 4.

    Did yours fully heal? Hard to find a solid answer on that as well.
     
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  4. ericaz White Belt

    ericaz
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    you won't find a solid answer because every injury depends on the person, ask your doctor these questions not sherdog
     
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  5. machomang Orange Belt

    machomang
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    I just want to hear other people's stories, of course I talk to my doctor
     
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  6. kjg1672 Purple Belt

    kjg1672
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    I partially tore my ACL in 1995 and eventually had to have it reconstructed a few years later when it became completely torn. I wish I had had it repaired earlier.
     
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  7. Was at Pride GP 2000 Brown Belt

    Was at Pride GP 2000
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    You should look into steam cells mixed with a little prp
     
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  8. Dirty Holt Brown Belt

    Dirty Holt
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    ACLs do not repair themselves. Either you live with the partially torn ACL for life, or you go have it replaced; they dont grow back like bones or muscles.
     
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  9. machomang Orange Belt

    machomang
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    That's what I've been reading, but my primary care doctor said it can fully heal. This is why I don't trust everything a doctor says.

    Let me ask you this though holt, what about stretched out acl fibers? Do those stay stretched or can those heal up?
     
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  10. Dirty Holt Brown Belt

    Dirty Holt
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    Just a bit of background: I have had 3 ACL replacements (all 3 freak accidents) from probably the best ACL doc in the world who does all ACL's for our Olympic team. After each one, I was back to competition in 6th months competing on the mat.

    Stretched fibers will not heal unless you are using off label methods which are basically in testing phases (PRP, stem cells, HGH). If you are stretched, you wont be 100%; it just wont happen. Your body can compensate and make the surrounding muscles stronger and your neuromuscular control can step up and you can still be very high level. However, for most normal people, this doesnt happen; this is in cases of very talented athletes. Everyday Joes are fine a lot of times because they can compensate for the laxity of the ACL, and their daily activities or competition against other Average Joes isnt going to place their body at such a high athletic demand that they rupture the ACL. High level athletes dont have this luxury. Every guy they go against is a fucking killer and compensation over replacement is a tough way to win.

    A word of advice: Many docs have less knowledge on ACL's as some athletes who have gone through this. They simply dont stay current, they dont look at long term studies, and they dont think like an athlete. My father in law was an orthopedic surgeon. He told me my career in athletics was finished after ACL #2. I came right back and beat multiple world and Olympic team members, made a US team, and finished in the finals in the world in UWW grappling and IBJJF. ACL's arent game enders like they were in the 80's and 90's when a lot of these orthos were cutting their teeth.

    One of my wrestlers just tore his ACL and the doc gave him a hamstring graft without even offering the option of PT graft (gold standard for athletes) or an allograft. His mother was shocked when I gave her some research after the surgery pertaining to athletes and ACL options vs what her sons ortho did. They arent always right.
     
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  11. QingTian Purple Belt

    QingTian
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    This is not to contradict what Holt said, but was just my experience without having to compete at a high level. But I was diagnosed with a torn ACL just by the doctor examining it. My knee popped, swelled up, took well over a week before walking normally, going by memory - so it was at least a partial tear.

    A year later the same doctor declared that the ACL is fine, but he swore it was torn when he checked the first time.

    I took at least 6 months off before training again, and swam instead. Then slowly trained more. After about a year I was no longer worried about it. For a while the knee felt no so tight but otherwise stable, but I definitely didn't want anyone falling on it. A few years later now I don't know if I can really tell the difference between my knees.

    Of course, logically there must still be some difference, but maybe as Holt says it matters only at high level. There are studies that show many who go without surgery regain their functions, but it takes time.

    For the common BJJ or other gym, no problem at all. That's the good news. The bad news is that you should take time off and lots of it, unless you want the surgery option.
     
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  12. selfcritical Brown Belt

    selfcritical
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    Primary care= chump.
     
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  13. machomang Orange Belt

    machomang
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    You never got an mri?

    A buddy fully tore his acl but was able to hike and run. Finally got his mri and got his acl reconstructed.

    And yeah, primary care doctors ain't so great...
     
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  14. QingTian Purple Belt

    QingTian
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    No, because I wasn't going to get surgery either way.

    This doctor is a sports medicine doctor, so at least should have been better than primary care...

    But, there is a clear difference in my knee. Before the doctor could move the shinbone outwards, and it felt like nothing would stop my knee from going past straight. Now that's all tightened again, on its own.

    Whether that's the ACL or something else, I don't know.
     
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  15. Kbits Orange Belt

    Kbits
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    I'm on my phone right now so quick reply here:

    I had a partial ACL tear (MRI confirmed) and now I apparently don't (also MRI confirmed). My knee still isn't 100% (may never be: have other issues there too) but I can provide the reports if needed.

    I actually pushed for the surgeon to operate and he said that the outcome was unlikely to get better and could get worse. So I'm kinda of stuck with "good enough" (I'm 7ish months post injury).

    Partial is such a weasel word...it can mean anything from 10% to 90%. Worry more about instability, symptoms and surgeon's opinion than something on a MRI report.

    PS: there are two studies that I'm aware of the show "partial" acl repairing...including one looking at high level soccer players and PRP (used MRI to confirm). I had PRP in mine but not sure if it did anything (there are some technical issues with ACL and standard PRP; can elaborate if needed)
     
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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  16. QingTian Purple Belt

    QingTian
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    ^ dangit, I was hoping I had some unique alligator regen genetics.

    Thanks for sharing your story.

    Interesting comment about PRP. I never got why everyone insists you should ice every injury. After all, unless it's internal bleeding, the body should be sending fluid there for a reason.
     
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  17. machomang Orange Belt

    machomang
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    What are the other issues in your knee? Is your knee stable?
     
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  18. Kbits Orange Belt

    Kbits
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    Yes, the knee is stable. I also had/have the following
    • Compression fracture of femur
    • Lateral meniscus tear
    • Medial meniscus tear
    • Cartilage fissuring / tear (patella)
    The knee just...hurts. Not a lot, not all the time...but it fellsbadman (tm). It could be the meniscus, it could be a patellar tracking issue, it could be the cartilage....who the fuck knows :(

    I've studied the MRI (I can read em, to some limited extent), read the literature, talked to the ortho (three times: I'm clearly paying off his boat). It was the ortho that said to me "Well, the knee isn't unstable and the MRI is clear....going in now risks making it worse".

    (FWIW, the 'gold standard' for confirming extent of partial acl tear is arthroscopy + MRI. There are other, more exotic / non surgical ways to confirm too...but outside of a uni lab, you're shit out of luck getting access to a KT-1000 with real time US or fluoroscopy)

    Playing 'doctor shopping' is an expensive game (plus, the guy I went to see did the first ACL repair on that knee anyway: I was happy with the results so went back to him), so at present am playing 'wait and see'. I can still do a fair bit (grappling wise) but there's no way I even want to risk hard stand up randori and definitely not comp....so bear that in mind as part of your "meh, it'll heal" strategy. I'm 7 months out (did it 25.01.17) and it's still not 100%

    Re: PRP study I mentioned

    The problem with PRP is that the synovial fluid in the knee tends to dissolve any scar / clot that forms a scaffold, forming the basis of healing (main knee joint is synovial joint). They need to include a squirt of collagen into the PRP mix so that it doesn't dissolve...and preferably inject it into a scaffold and/or partially torn ACL. There's no reason why this *shouldn't* work but it's experimental...and without it, the PRP gets 'washed out'

    Here are a couple of articles for your consideration

    Spontaneous healing of torn ACL: MRI study
    (not the best level of evidence, but something to consider)

    Anterior cruciate ligament tears treated with percutaneous injection of autologous bone marrow nucleated cells: a case series

    ACL injuries and stem cell therapy

    Partial anterior cruciate ligament tears treated with intraligamentary plasma rich in growth factors

    Factors Related to the Need for Surgical Reconstruction After Anterior Cruciate Ligament
    Rupture: A Systematic Review of the Literature


    (if you need the fulltext of these, try plugging them into https://sci-hub.cc/)

    TL;DR: while ACLr is still the gold standard for this sort of thing, it's *much* less clear with partial ACL tears. From one of the articles above


    Finally, I'll copy and paste this from reddit for you also

    None of this constitutes medical advice / is provided to you for educational purposes only / see a frikken doctor in person and discuss your options!
     
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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  19. Kbits Orange Belt

    Kbits
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    No they are not :) What info did you present re: PT vs Quad braided hammy? They don't do PT grafts here - and as I understand it, these are riskier for grapplers anyway (due to the fact that it restricts kneeling / increases risk of patellar fracture at later stage).

    I had quad braided hammy: the tunnel placements are good (a whole other topic...!) but I know if they went in and did a second graft, they'd either have to drill a second tunnel OR widen the existing tunnels (if I went for something like LARS). Complications all around :(

    If you've had three, can you tell me more about what they used the second/third time, complications etc?

    Knees suck, man. That's all I've got to say on that :)
     
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  20. ChiTownBuckeye Yellow Belt

    ChiTownBuckeye
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    Yes, was out about 6 weeks.
     
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