- Joined
- Jun 3, 2014
- Messages
- 2,130
- Reaction score
- 1
Official Judo Thread X: Triple Weave Edition
- Thread starter Zankou
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 28,217
- Reaction score
- 12
What throws can you do from a double collar grip? Each hand grabbing one side of the collar. Also is this a legal grip, or can you only hold if attacking?
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 5,948
- Reaction score
- 357
you can grab wherever so long as you've got a hand on either side of the spine.
kind of a wash on effectiveness: you can easily curl them towards you or push them away, but you don't have much mechanical advantage/control of their rotation.
see, you're trying to move them AND most likely flip them. if we represent someone's spine as the midpoint of the circle, grabbing progressively further down the sleeve increases the radius of that circle, thus increasing our lever, therefore our torque, and thereby our falldowngoboom. we also want to control that lever, so by widening our grip we're allowed more control over the moment of inertia.
however, if you're just trying to lift that circle you're in good shape. ouchigari, kouchigari, tomoenage, and incidental footsweeps all work reasonably well. caveat: it's 'ugly' judo, pretty telegraph-y and honestly not all that hard to defend unless you're able to beast someone around. you're all but asking to get sodetsurikomigoshi-ed.
it's also not as good as a body lock, which accomplishes the same thing with more control as you're using your entire body to control the flightpath.
double collar tomoenage is the shit. you can easily send someone between danger areas with a properly timed push and release...
kind of a wash on effectiveness: you can easily curl them towards you or push them away, but you don't have much mechanical advantage/control of their rotation.
see, you're trying to move them AND most likely flip them. if we represent someone's spine as the midpoint of the circle, grabbing progressively further down the sleeve increases the radius of that circle, thus increasing our lever, therefore our torque, and thereby our falldowngoboom. we also want to control that lever, so by widening our grip we're allowed more control over the moment of inertia.
however, if you're just trying to lift that circle you're in good shape. ouchigari, kouchigari, tomoenage, and incidental footsweeps all work reasonably well. caveat: it's 'ugly' judo, pretty telegraph-y and honestly not all that hard to defend unless you're able to beast someone around. you're all but asking to get sodetsurikomigoshi-ed.
it's also not as good as a body lock, which accomplishes the same thing with more control as you're using your entire body to control the flightpath.
double collar tomoenage is the shit. you can easily send someone between danger areas with a properly timed push and release...
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2014
- Messages
- 631
- Reaction score
- 0
This is one authoritative Seoi Nage.
http://www.judocrazy.com/2016/02/iddirs-last-moment-standing-ippon-seoi.html
http://www.judocrazy.com/2016/02/iddirs-last-moment-standing-ippon-seoi.html
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 28,217
- Reaction score
- 12
But what about harai goshi, or osoto gari? And do you need to rotate that circle around its center line, rotate it around your center line?
I doubt you can effectively perform a harai goshi with a double collar grip. You'd be too close.
I like to do the ippon seoi-nage with a collar grip, since it lets me get much tighter and eliminate a lot of my flaws with the throw. But I only do that when I'm trying to go all out, since I can't really train my flaws when I'm purposely attempting to circumvent them.
I use the collar grip for what RJ Green wrote- ouchigar/kouchigari/just generally trying to muscle the guy around until I make an the opening for a soei-nage.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 5,948
- Reaction score
- 357
sleeve/underhook or sleeve/over-the-back. sleeve/headlock with diminishing returns. sleeve/collar for the pedants. never collar/collar.
almost always sleeve/collar. sometimes headlock but that's pretty much a half-turned harai at that point. i'm kind of a pedant on how this throw should be practiced, but i think the throwing vector should be more sideways than backwards since that's how it's thrown everywhere expect uchikomi and kata...
yes.
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 28,217
- Reaction score
- 12
so you think osoto should be more sideways reaping and pulling action, and not backwards, or forward?
And sorry, I meant to ask, are you suppose to rotate the opponent around his own center line, or rotate the opponent around your center line for I guess throws like Harai Goshi?
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 5,948
- Reaction score
- 357
both. depends on the context. some throws rotate uke onto his back by rotating about the sagittal plane (harai goshi, harai tsurikomi ashi) whereas others rotate uke via the traverse plane (seoi nage, tomoe nage)
however, the axis of rotation relative to YOUR center line isn't necessarily the same as uke's. in harai goshi you're reaping uke's legs out from under him while pulling him forward, so uke should go around and beside you, as opposed to up and over your leg (o guruma) or up and over the side of your body even though you're sticking your leg out (still seoi nage)
throws where you rotate PRIMARILY about your own sagittal plane to generate force include yoko wakare, lateral drop (no idea what that's called in judo, probably "that's illegal"), tai otoshi, uki otoshi
most throws follow the same general template: some sort of rotation by tori to generate the force for throwing, a dominant grip to transfer that force, and some sort of fulcrum to topple uke over with.
when you get good, you can also add 'timing' to that list, which is a very concise way to say "exploiting uke's actions and momentum to impart more throwing force'. harai tsurikomi ashi requires no rotation from tori and very little force - just a little lift and a swift kick. ha.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 5,948
- Reaction score
- 357
one of my training partners is getting his PhD in kinesiology. it'd be awesome if he ends up able to study the biomechanics of Judo but i think he's going into pedagogy? something about envisioning people as stick figures on a cartesian grid really helped me 'get' Judo.
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 28,217
- Reaction score
- 12
Yes, that looks like from the side. But is that not an ashi Guruma? I tend to do all the moves like uchikomi.
You can do most throws from double lapel grip (and their are variations of that grip plus similar ones like armpit (pocket) etc.
If you are asking how effective they can be in randori or shiai, that varies, and a lot depends on you.
Yes, it's a legal grip as long as you are not stiff arming the other guy out, but it's not the grip that's illegal in that case, it's the defensive attitude/posture.
I've read the posts so far in response, and don't in general disagree with most of them.
In general, if you don't have a sleeve grip, and a low sleeve grip at that, as was pointed out, it is harder to control uke rotation, which means it's harder to maintain control of uke body, so more chance for uke to escape/dodge/block/turnout. On the other hand, there is a lot less slack between what you do and uke with a double lapel grip. This is especially evident in Ippon Seoi Nage. Less slack means more/faster control and contact.
Try this out to start.
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187
He has other stuff out there that is very interesting and might help you out. I'll assume you and others can do google fu.
Do less uchikomi and more nage komi?
You can do it either way/direction (Osoto Gari). Osoto Gari is done to the rear or side.
I posted a link to a biomechanical classification of Judo throws https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187
Funnily, biomechanically speaking, Osoto Gari and say, Uchi Mata, are the same (idealized) mechanically, rotating uke around his own center of gravity using a force-couple.
Biomchanically there are two types of throws, force-couple, and lever. Those can be used together/combination as well (hybrid throws).
The further the distance between the fulcrum and the point of application of force, the more energetically efficient the action. So Seoi Nage is less energetically efficient than Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi or Uki Otoshi, for example (for lever type throws).
2 seconds left, other guy thinks "no way he can throw me, I'll just give up my posture and stance and ride out the time".
Bad choice on his part.
