Official Judo Thread X: Triple Weave Edition

[BKR]

I haven't thought about the back... was more worried about damaging my elbow. I actually got my back problem doing standing seoi, where a hip block bent me backwards (the guy was humongous).

I'm sure I will still screw up at some point, but I am vigilant to pull before entering and always have my hands in front of me. That is the way to do kuzushi, and throw uke properly during the drop.

I tried to figure why either drop or standing is better. I think overall standing seoi is better, except for some circumstances. After all, if you can do the kuzushi well, the throwing action is really the same thing. You actually lose power by dropping rather than springing with your hips.

The answer is that drop seoi is more difficult to squirm out of, and requires less precise body placement. Further, you don't risk completely carrying uke's weight in a non-ideal entry.

So it seems to me that drop seoi can be appropriate just to maximize odds of a score (contest situations) and also when there is a large size (especially height) differential.

If you are worried about your elbow, do Ippon version. Or do the Morote but do not try to tuck your elbow under uke armpit. That's risky (but can be very effective) even on somebody your own size. I should know, I've messed up my elbow that way more than once.

The spinal compression thing is very real, especially if you make the entry and do not have uke going the direction you intended to throw (lack of "kuzushi"). Again, I should know, I've had my back compressed badly more than once because of a botched entry or good reaction from opponent.

Changing levels (dropping) is quite similar to a sutemi action. The "drop" can be part of the tsukuri, producing the elusive kuzushi, as well as the kake/finish.
So I disagree that you necessarily lose "power" by dropping (of course, you can, same as in standing Seoi Nage). Tori body weight swinging down/in/under (or all three) produces a lot of momentum. If you end up doing a -nage instead of -otoshi, (coming up off the knees or raising up on them), it can be very strong.

The drop is effective because of use of body weight and surprise/change of level/direction, as long as you have the upper body connection to do with it.

Regarding the height difference, well, tall guys can be harder to use the drop on due to body mechanics. They often seem to "bend in the middle". In other words, there can be quite a lag between upper body and lower body, even if you hook them up will. If they are just a little taller, OK, but tall skinny guys can be tough to catch with dropping techniques.

I eventually went to mostly doing Ippon Seoi Nage rather than Morote, although what happened was often a mystery to me until after I had thrown the guy, or at least tried to do so. Same with Kata Eri version. I actually started dropping after I got my knee dislocated back in 1982 or 3. After ACL recon in 1987, the imbalance between the knees kept me from going back tot he standing/squatting version that I was getting quite good at (short legs and long arms in my case helped) before someone blew my knee out for me with a bad Osoto Gari.

 

[BKR]

I'd add that specific technique is not as important as not getting into a position where the superior size/strength of your opponent can be brought to bear on you. Gripping, movement, etc. are going to be even more important...

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Was reading an article in BJJEE about interview with IJF boss, who apparently said they could bring leg grabs back...
Imagined the judokas from the last few generations on the mat...

 

[Uchi Mata]

Was reading an article in BJJEE about interview with IJF boss, who apparently said they could bring leg grabs back...
Imagined the judokas from the last few generations on the mat...

It would make me happy. Not because I was a huge leg grabber, but just because it's silly to not have them. If you don't want people to stall, just call stalling!

 

[BKR]

Was reading an article in BJJEE about interview with IJF boss, who apparently said they could bring leg grabs back...
Imagined the judokas from the last few generations on the mat...

As one of those guys, I'd say I'd welcome it, as long as something is in place to keep from going back to the bent over, dive at legs stuff when outgripped that got to be so common.
Also, focusing on the level of athleticism displayed by the guy in the red singlet would be better than worrying about leg grabs...of course, that plus great leg grab technique would be a plus, LOL !

 

[BKR]

It would make me happy. Not because I was a huge leg grabber, but just because it's silly to not have them. If you don't want people to stall, just call stalling!

I think a set of rules could be crafted that could address leg grab flop and drop as a stall/false attack tactic.

It might be harder on the refs, and part of the equation is making it easier to referee...not that it should be.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think a set of rules could be crafted that could address leg grab flop and drop as a stall/false attack tactic.

It might be harder on the refs, and part of the equation is making it easier to referee...not that it should be.

Judo has gotten better at calling stalling in the last few years, no reason they couldn't apply that same rigor to leg grabs if they were brought back.

 

[Bayonet]

I agree with Uchi Mata on this one. If ref's can call out obvious false-attack stalling tactics, they can call out false-attack leg grab flops. If refs are ruthless on giving out shidos for obvious stalling, it'd stop pretty quick. We don't need more specific rules. We just need to reliably enforce the general ones.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

As one of those guys, I'd say I'd welcome it, as long as something is in place to keep from going back to the bent over, dive at legs stuff when outgripped that got to be so common.
Also, focusing on the level of athleticism displayed by the guy in the red singlet would be better than worrying about leg grabs...of course, that plus great leg grab technique would be a plus, LOL !

I think the gripping game has become way more efficient these days, especially with the new judogi requirements.
Judokas of today have developed the gripping game to its finest.
In reality, I believe judo has evolved a lot, including many wrestling/ sambo techniques and sequences to its arsenal, to the point, that bent posture is easily countered.
Question is, how would straight standing judokas are going to counter leg grabbing players though- the recent trend is counter judo, based on backward pulling, arching, counter tripping and etc, so there arent really that many players, still keeping the traditional judo stance or gameplay, whatever IJF means by that.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think the gripping game has become way more efficient these days, especially with the new judogi requirements.
Judokas of today have developed the gripping game to its finest.
In reality, I believe judo has evolved a lot, including many wrestling/ sambo techniques and sequences to its arsenal, to the point, that bent posture is easily countered.
Question is, how would straight standing judokas are going to counter leg grabbing players though- the recent trend is counter judo, based on backward pulling, arching, counter tripping and etc, so there arent really that many players, still keeping the traditional judo stance or gameplay, whatever IJF means by that.

Players stood up pretty straight back when leg grabs were legal, it didn't seem to have much effect. Gripping is always what negates naive leg attacks, and if you get out gripped and someone throws you with a pickup that's not different to me than getting out gripped and thrown with an uchi mata or something else classical. It's certainly not a question of stance. At most, I think you would see guys bend over a little more until they got into gripping range and then standing up straight, just to avoid the blast double.

The other option is that they can use the rules. If I'm standing straight up and you don't break my posture and just reach out to try and grab my leg and fall to the mat, that's a false attack. If I can out grip you and put you in danger such that you have to try repeated bad leg attacks just to keep from getting thrown, you should lose by hansoku make.

I would compete in Judo again if they brought back leg grabs and reduced the gripping restrictions a little.

 

[BKR]

Judo has gotten better at calling stalling in the last few years, no reason they couldn't apply that same rigor to leg grabs if they were brought back.

Stalling, yeah, much better. The issue with leg-grabbing though wasn't just stalling, but had to do with false attack. Which is of course, really, a type of non-combativity/false attack.

Except, that the way false attack is defined makes it tough to make calls. Some hand to leg attacks are obviously false attacks, but others are not. If you do that, and your opponent has to react, it's not really a false attack is it ? I used to ref a lot, and this was a constant bugaboo. You have to judge the intent of the attacker, and that's where it gets dicey.

Getting outgripped and then diving for a low ankle pick isn't necessarily a false attack. I've thrown a lot of guys with that very thing, even baiting taller guys into getting a high/overback grip so I can make that attack or something similar.

I hope they do bring them back, though, and yeah, it's entirely possible to figure out some sort of middle ground on making the calls. One might be to allow them as counter throws, and as a followup to another attack (ashiwaza or otherwise, Uchi Mata to ankle pick, stuff like that). They have the camera system, so can use that to resolve controversial calls.

 

[BKR]

I think the gripping game has become way more efficient these days, especially with the new judogi requirements.
Judokas of today have developed the gripping game to its finest.
In reality, I believe judo has evolved a lot, including many wrestling/ sambo techniques and sequences to its arsenal, to the point, that bent posture is easily countered.
Question is, how would straight standing judokas are going to counter leg grabbing players though- the recent trend is counter judo, based on backward pulling, arching, counter tripping and etc, so there arent really that many players, still keeping the traditional judo stance or gameplay, whatever IJF means by that.

Yes, I've noticed that as well regarding the gripping.

Isn't the bent posture, or wasn't it, due to the threat of leg grabs, though, to some degree ? Of course, "bent posture" isn't really that great for that, a "wrestling stance" low but not necessarily bent back in schoolboy/freestyle wrestling to help avoid the low shooting attacks (that may be leg grabs or not).

I've also noticed the stronger back-counter game as well, we've been working on that quite a bit. The stalling penalties being enforced often forces people to attack at not optimal times and opens that up quite a bit.

Not sure what you mean by traditional judo stance...upright, with left or right leg forward (migi or hidari shizentai)?

 

[BKR]

Players stood up pretty straight back when leg grabs were legal, it didn't seem to have much effect. Gripping is always what negates naive leg attacks, and if you get out gripped and someone throws you with a pickup that's not different to me than getting out gripped and thrown with an uchi mata or something else classical. It's certainly not a question of stance. At most, I think you would see guys bend over a little more until they got into gripping range and then standing up straight, just to avoid the blast double.

The other option is that they can use the rules. If I'm standing straight up and you don't break my posture and just reach out to try and grab my leg and fall to the mat, that's a false attack. If I can out grip you and put you in danger such that you have to try repeated bad leg attacks just to keep from getting thrown, you should lose by hansoku make.

I would compete in Judo again if they brought back leg grabs and reduced the gripping restrictions a little.

The trend in high level judo (which is what the IJF cares about) was IMO towards more and more bent over judo. It got to where I really didn't like watching Judo anymore at that level at least. Not all of it, of course, but it was a definite trend.

I agree, a good "pick up" is just as much Judo as Uchi Mata or Seoi Nage.

I'd like to see them come back, with something in place to avoid the whole leg grabbing, bent over, stalling style of play.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The trend in high level judo (which is what the IJF cares about) was IMO towards more and more bent over judo. It got to where I really didn't like watching Judo anymore at that level at least. Not all of it, of course, but it was a definite trend.

I agree, a good "pick up" is just as much Judo as Uchi Mata or Seoi Nage.

I'd like to see them come back, with something in place to avoid the whole leg grabbing, bent over, stalling style of play.

It depended on the weight class. The lighter the guys, the more bent over. I never had a problem with it, I thought the variety of style made things more interesting and I don't think stalling was any worse than it is now. I feel like the IJF has tried to make everyone play the same way.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Players stood up pretty straight back when leg grabs were legal, it didn't seem to have much effect. Gripping is always what negates naive leg attacks, and if you get out gripped and someone throws you with a pickup that's not different to me than getting out gripped and thrown with an uchi mata or something else classical. It's certainly not a question of stance. At most, I think you would see guys bend over a little more until they got into gripping range and then standing up straight, just to avoid the blast double.

The other option is that they can use the rules. If I'm standing straight up and you don't break my posture and just reach out to try and grab my leg and fall to the mat, that's a false attack. If I can out grip you and put you in danger such that you have to try repeated bad leg attacks just to keep from getting thrown, you should lose by hansoku make.

I would compete in Judo again if they brought back leg grabs and reduced the gripping restrictions a little.

I believe that judo developed strategically over the last 10 years. I haven't seen many cross competing athletes back then, when now is not unusual to see national judo squads to compete in sambo on the highest level and vice versa.
I think that now there are many cross training athletes on the world competition scene and that's what changes the style- plenty of new strategies, coaching included...
If the leg grabs are back, I don't think we will see bent stance dominatin . You don't need to be in wrestler stance to grab legs. All you need is good grip and gi control, combined with good coordination and counter movements.

 

[Thrawn33]

I have gotten to the point of mutual trust with my BJJ team where I can uchimata them on terrible single legs and they will not die....I have now hit more uchimatas (mostly ken Ken) in several months of BJJ than I ever have in 6 years Judo.

True mutal benefit, I bring it to the mat quicker for them to torment with me...and they're getting better about standing grip fights and agression.

And being able to ankle pick again, praise be to JBG!

 

[BKR]

It depended on the weight class. The lighter the guys, the more bent over. I never had a problem with it, I thought the variety of style made things more interesting and I don't think stalling was any worse than it is now. I feel like the IJF has tried to make everyone play the same way.

I agree, the smaller guys were the worse. I have to disagree though about it being more interesting. Part of the problem was there were more failed attempts at Tomoe Nage etc, but no time for ne waza given, so it was another form of "safe/proper" false attack.

 

[BKR]

I believe that judo developed strategically over the last 10 years. I haven't seen many cross competing athletes back then, when now is not unusual to see national judo squads to compete in sambo on the highest level and vice versa.
I think that now there are many cross training athletes on the world competition scene and that's what changes the style- plenty of new strategies, coaching included...
If the leg grabs are back, I don't think we will see bent stance dominatin . You don't need to be in wrestler stance to grab legs. All you need is good grip and gi control, combined with good coordination and counter movements.

Great post, I agree, although I see most cross training going on in BJJ (and other sports). I also think the general level of athleticism is on an upward trend. We are training our kids in ABCs, and encourage them to do other sports than judo, especially the young ones. Less focus on purely technical Judo (which is boring for kids), more on developing general athletic ability with judo-like training.

There isn't much Sambo in the USA or Canada, so BJJ is it, along with wrestling, although I'm am in the Canadian system now so not so much wrestling as in the USA.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I agree, the smaller guys were the worse. I have to disagree though about it being more interesting. Part of the problem was there were more failed attempts at Tomoe Nage etc, but no time for ne waza given, so it was another form of "safe/proper" false attack.

That's a separate problem and one of the few things the IJF has been right on lately (giving more mat time). I think you'd see it be less of an issue with increased ne waza time and, I feel, increased aggressiveness in ne waza in recent years.

 

[BKR]

That's a separate problem and one of the few things the IJF has been right on lately (giving more mat time). I think you'd see it be less of an issue with increased ne waza time and, I feel, increased aggressiveness in ne waza in recent years.

The hypothesis that allowing more ne waza time would decrease crappy attacks has never panned out IME. Because there has never been "unlimited" ground time in Judo (unlike BJJ). Progress has to be made, as you know. Decreasing amount of ne waza time was explained as "lack of progress". So the interpretation of progress was the issue (plus a certain IJF head ref's dislike for ne waza, but I digress).

It's pretty easy to stall out on the ground, even with liberal interpretation of "progress". Plus, there is no requirement to do ground work in Judo competition, it's optional. The athlete has to decide on an ongoing basis if it's worth the energy burned to attack a determined defender on the ground, and that depends on time on the clock, score, etc., etc. Which is why transitional attacks are so important.

I just watched video of two of my students competing at the Saskatchewan Open (teenagers). They both clearly understood (because we train that way) what is good use of energy regarding attacking ont the ground. One kid won 3 out of 4 matches on the ground, one armbar, and two pins, including in the finals. The other won two matches on the ground after throwing, one after a ouchi gari and quick scramble...he was on the other guy before he even knew what was happening. The one kids is super good at just standing up out of a defensive position, which was funny to watch. The other nearly choked 2 guys out several times, but needs more work on how to finish and apply better overall body control.

In any case, I'm not saying extended groundwork is a bad thing, or not tactically viable. I've watched some high level matches lately that featured some fairly length ne waza (Travis Stephens), and I was pleased to see the ref apparently knew what was going on and let it progress. Ne waza is an option in judo, not a requirement.

And BTW, I came from a judo school that did a LOT of ne waza, and I like ne waza a lot, and I teach quite a bit.