Official AMD "Ryzen" CPU Discussion

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jefferz said:
Unfortunately the prices won't drop when a new gen comes off. Intel controls their inventory really, really well.
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Figures :mad:

So I should probably pull the trigger on the 7600K soon or Ill have a worthless motherboard when they run out?
 
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Snubnoze707 said:
Figures :mad:

So I should probably pull the trigger on the 7600K soon or Ill have a worthless motherboard when they run out?
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If you have a Z series board, I'd get rid of it on craiglist, ebay, etc and wait for Coffee Lake. If you had a B or H series, I'd buy a cheap pentium and make a cheap htpc.
 
jefferz said:
If you have a Z series board, I'd get rid of it on craiglist, ebay, etc and wait for Coffee Lake. If you had a B or H series, I'd buy a cheap pentium and make a cheap htpc.
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Gotcha. It's still sealed and everything. It's an AsRock Z270M-ITX/ac board you think I could get $100 for it and take a small hit?
 
Snubnoze707 said:
Gotcha. It's still sealed and everything. It's an AsRock Z270M-ITX/ac board you think I could get $100 for it and take a small hit?
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I always expect to lose 10% on this generations and 20% on last gens hardware when selling. When you start getting older than that, the prices can get goofy.
Mini itx boards always sell quickly.
 
Snubnoze707 said:
Gotcha. It's still sealed and everything. It's an AsRock Z270M-ITX/ac board you think I could get $100 for it and take a small hit?
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Just keep in mind that the a Z270 board can run the i7-7700K (@4.2/4.5) as its premier chipset, or the i5-7600K (@3.8/4.2) that interests you.

We're about to enter a limbo world for the next year or two. The reason for the limbo is that Intel has always maintained general gaming dominance due to the fact it rules in terms of instructions per clock (i.e. IPC) performance, but for the first time, it is expanding its mainstream processors to six cores. What this means is that for a short time we might expect the 7700K (and quad core i3-8350K) to still rule the overall gaming landscape in terms of performance due to their higher core clock frequency; it's unclear in the case of the upcoming i3s.

In fact, even on the gaming benchmarks, which always focus on the most sophisticated (i.e. Vulkan/DX12) and demanding titles that take better advantage of multicore scaling, the 7700K is still basically tied as the top performer at stock with the Broadwell-E hexa core i7-6850K (@3.6/3.8). The major advantage these new Coffee Lake hexa core chips have over that older 6850K appears to be the elevated Turbo Mode clocks: i7-8700K (@3.7/4.7) and i5-8600K (@3.6/4.6) indicating a much higher single thread-- and gaming performance-- potential.

It's reasonable to expect another 5%-7% IPC advancement similar to what Kaby Lake offered over Skylake, and not much less than what Skylake offered over Broadwell/Haswell. That means that any quad core chipset upgrade over the i5-7600K for you isn't worth the motherboard hassle for you, and should be out of the question. After all, since we're discussing an i5 purchase, value is already a consideration. So unless you are upgrading to the i5-8600K or i7-8700K, don't bother. You'd be incurring a substantial cost for a nominal performance improvement. Similarly, for the reasons elucidated above, you might not expect any insane improvement in actual gaming performance from the 8600K and 8700K themselves.


I will also predict that despite Intel's exceptional inventory controls that, yes, you will likely see a drop in price drop on the 7600K. The reason for this is the hexacore shift. Jefferz is using generational shifts as a paradigm that all saw quad core succeeded by quad core. We have an actual core-shift taking place here: the first in a decade. So suddenly the current i5 king, the i5-7600K, is going to face a massive value deficiency against its immediate brand successor, the i5-8600K, and also its true successor, the i3-8350K, that its predecessors did not respectively face. I have a hard time seeing how it will not drop below $200 as a market value because of that.

It may later rise due to demand drawn from motherboards needing chips, but compatibility issues arising from scarcity of platform are a separate market phenomenon in tech.
 
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@Madmick thanks for the feedback.

Ideally it would be nice not having to get rid of that board, also got it at a decent price of $120 and it matches a color scheme for what's that worth.

I was thinking more of overall costs with board/chip rather than the performance increase. Seeing a slightly better chip $70 cheaper had me wondering where I want to go. I'd probably lose those savings on a Z370m-ITX board anyways.

I certainly wouldn't notice any nominal performance differences as I haven't PC gamed since the 90's (Quake World was my shit) and I'm still gaming on a PS3.

My motivation for wanting to build a PC is to play new gen fighting games, specifically Tekken 7, do graphic design work in Photoshop, run emulators of older gaming systems, and to be a media center.
 
7600K on Amazon right now at $209.89. Combined with the board I already paid for that puts me at around $330.

Probably can't hit that with a Coffee Lake Mini ITX set up, I may just pull the trigger...
 
Gigabyte and MSI are rumored to not be making custom Vega cards
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/59297/gigabyte-msi-making-custom-radeon-rx-vega-cards/index.html
giphy.gif
 
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Snubnoze707 said:
@Madmick thanks for the feedback.

Ideally it would be nice not having to get rid of that board, also got it at a decent price of $120 and it matches a color scheme for what's that worth.

I was thinking more of overall costs with board/chip rather than the performance increase. Seeing a slightly better chip $70 cheaper had me wondering where I want to go. I'd probably lose those savings on a Z370m-ITX board anyways.

I certainly wouldn't notice any nominal performance differences as I haven't PC gamed since the 90's (Quake World was my shit) and I'm still gaming on a PS3.

My motivation for wanting to build a PC is to play new gen fighting games, specifically Tekken 7, do graphic design work in Photoshop, run emulators of older gaming systems, and to be a media center.
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No, I meant that the i3-8350K would offer a nominal performance improvement over the i5-7600K. The former has same number of cores/threads, is one generation more advanced, but with a core clock 100MHz lower, and an unclear Turbo clock. So at face value I'd expect those two chips to perform about as close to identically as two distinct chips get.

Obviously, the attraction to the i3-8350K for you is a cheaper overall price so long as that isn't offset by this motherboard switch cost. If this is isn't true for a Mini ITX board, and it isn't worth the trouble with that form factor switch, then it sounds like you have your plan.

I must say that new i5-8600K ($257) is a super attractive value. Also, for Intel pure gamers who don't overclock, who focus strictly on gaming value, and who don't care about hyperthreading ePeen, picking between these two processors is going to be a whole new conundrum:
  1. ($168) i3-8350K @4.0/?.? [4c/4t]
  2. ($182) i5-8400 @2.8/4.0 [6c/6t] {Locked}
I'm going to be very interested to see how that i5-8400 performs in gaming benchmarks. The core clock is terribly low in 2017, even for an Intel processor, but the @4.0GHz Turbo Mode has me thinking it might crack out some exceptional gaming figures. I have to suspect that the i3 will require a Turbo Mode in order to be competitive if it isn't overclocked.

The notion of getting an Intel 6-core processor for under $200 is still sort of mindblowing.
 
Ya I bought a Phanteks mini itx case already. In hindsight I should have probably gone with a bigger form factor I just really liked this case and it was at a decent price when I got it.

I think I'll just get the 7600K and not sweat missing out on the performance boost of the 8600K.

I still need to worry about a graphics card too.

This stuff gets expensive :eek:
 
Madmick said:
No, I meant that the i3-8350K would offer a nominal performance improvement over the i5-7600K. The former has same number of cores/threads, is one generation more advanced, but with a core clock 100MHz lower, and an unclear Turbo clock. So at face value I'd expect those two chips to perform about as close to identically as two distinct chips get.

Obviously, the attraction to the i3-8350K for you is a cheaper overall price so long as that isn't offset by this motherboard switch cost. If this is isn't true for a Mini ITX board, and it isn't worth the trouble with that form factor switch, then it sounds like you have your plan.

I must say that new i5-8600K ($257) is a super attractive value. Also, for Intel pure gamers who don't overclock, who focus strictly on gaming value, and who don't care about hyperthreading ePeen, picking between these two processors is going to be a whole new conundrum:
  1. ($168) i3-8350K @4.0/?.? [4c/4t]
  2. ($182) i5-8400 @2.8/4.0 [6c/6t] {Locked}
I'm going to be very interested to see how that i5-8400 performs in gaming benchmarks. The core clock is terribly low in 2017, even for an Intel processor, but the @4.0GHz Turbo Mode has me thinking it might crack out some exceptional gaming figures. I have to suspect that the i3 will require a Turbo Mode in order to be competitive if it isn't overclocked.

The notion of getting an Intel 6-core processor for under $200 is still sort of mindblowing.
Click to expand...

The i3-8350k is a little to high imo. I'd like to see it drop to $150. At $168 it's competing with the r5 1400 4/8 cores. At $150 it would fit between the R3 1300x 4/4 ($130) and that r5 1400.
When you factor in the cost of a Z series board, the i3-8350k is an even more of a horrible deal this gen. Look at the prices of the mobos, a Ryzen B350 ($60) board instead of an Intel Z series ($100) board. Apply that savings to the price of the ie-8350k ($40+$168) and that places you in the R5-1600 price range and it has 6/12 cores.
The only time it would make sense oddly is if you weren't into overclocking and wanted the fastest 4/4 for some reason.
 
jefferz said:
The i3-8350k is a little to high imo. I'd like to see it drop to $150. At $168 it's competing with the r5 1400 4/8 cores. At $150 it would fit between the R3 1300x 4/4 ($130) and that r5 1400.
When you factor in the cost of a Z series board, the i3-8350k is an even more of a horrible deal this gen. Look at the prices of the mobos, a Ryzen B350 ($60) board instead of an Intel Z series ($100) board. Apply that savings to the price of the ie-8350k ($40+$168) and that places you in the R5-1600 price range and it has 6/12 cores.
The only time it would make sense oddly is if you weren't into overclocking and wanted the fastest 4/4 for some reason.
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Well, this is new. For once, we aren't seeing eye to eye, but this time I'm the one who fails to muster any optimism for AMD.

No, I just don't see the attractiveness of the R5-1400. It's the new i3, frankly: in a limbo jack-of-all-trades world where it is the master desire of no consumer. Remember, the i3-8350K can be expected to perform nearly identically to the i5-7600K.
  1. Pure gamers will laugh at paying $155 for an AMD 4c/8t R5-1400 when it's a measly $13 more for Intel's industry-leading quad core performance with the i3-8350K.
  2. Editors will also laugh at the notion of giving up all that mainstream/gaming software superiority for...yet more inferiority. Indeed, the R3-1400 at stock frequency loses to the current i5-7600K in overall horsepower across synthetics including 3DMark (Fire Strike Physics), UserBenchmark (MC Mixed), and Passmark (CPU Multii-Threaded). Again, for a $13 premium, this is a no-brainer.
  3. Budget editing overclockers won't see the point versus the slight $40 premium for the current R5-1600 if they value editing performance more, and the i3-8350K if they value gaming performance more. Either is more attractive within its respective niche.
Meanwhile, the R3-1200 is a big loser, too. Even married to a hallmark budget aftermarket cooler like the $30 Hyper 212 EVO the current market total is $140. Who wants to waste money on that purchase when a stock i3-8350K will blow it out of the water? It's tough to imagine gamers clutching onto that $28 when he/she is almost certainly spending $600+ on his total system.


R5-1400 OC@4Ghz vs i5-7600K [email protected]


R3-1200 [email protected] vs i5-7600k [email protected]


R3-1200 [email protected] vs. i5-7600K [email protected]
 
Madmick said:
Well, this is new. For once, we aren't seeing eye to eye, but this time I'm the one who fails to muster any optimism for AMD.

No, I just don't see the attractiveness of the R5-1400. It's the new i3, frankly: in a limbo jack-of-all-trades world where it is the master desire of no consumer. Remember, the i3-8350K can be expected to perform nearly identically to the i5-7600K.
  1. Pure gamers will laugh at paying $155 for an AMD 4c/8t R5-1400 when it's a measly $13 more for Intel's industry-leading quad core performance with the i3-8350K.
  2. Editors will also laugh at the notion of giving up all that mainstream/gaming software superiority for...yet more inferiority. Indeed, the R3-1400 at stock frequency loses to the current i5-7600K in overall horsepower across synthetics including 3DMark (Fire Strike Physics), UserBenchmark (MC Mixed), and Passmark (CPU Multii-Threaded). Again, for a $13 premium, this is a no-brainer.
  3. Budget editing overclockers won't see the point versus the slight $40 premium for the current R5-1600 if they value editing performance more, and the i3-8350K if they value gaming performance more. Either is more attractive within its respective niche.
Meanwhile, the R3-1200 is a big loser, too. Even married to a hallmark budget aftermarket cooler like the $30 Hyper 212 EVO the current market total is $140. Who wants to waste money on that purchase when a stock i3-8350K will blow it out of the water? It's tough to imagine gamers clutching onto that $28 when he/she is almost certainly spending $600+ on his total system.


R5-1400 OC@4Ghz vs i5-7600K [email protected]


R3-1200 [email protected] vs i5-7600k [email protected]


R3-1200 [email protected] vs. i5-7600K [email protected]
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If we're going pure gaming, yes the 8350k will beat the 1400 everytime for $13 more, but it's not $13 more. As I posted above, you have to spend another $40 on the mobo to get into the intel platform. Unless they allow for H & B series boards to OC like the did with the G3258.
The R3-1200 doesn't need an aftermarket cooler. From what I've seen, most people at 3.8 - 4.0 hit 75 degrees max on the stock cooler. That's more than safe.
You brought up another negative for the 8350k, you're going to need to add the cost of a cooler which adds even more to the price of that Intel platform because it will either come with the stock intel garbage or none at all. 212's drop down to $20 fairly often btw, newegg has one for that price AR right now.
So now we're $60 extra for the intel platform.


Another great reaction from intel would be to include a cooler that's worth a damn. Another benefit with the AMD is the socket will be good until 2020. Who knows how long Intel will keep using this socket.
 
jefferz said:
If we're going pure gaming, yes the 8350k will beat the 1400 everytime for $13 more, but it's not $13 more. As I posted above, you have to spend another $40 on the mobo to get into the intel platform. Unless they allow for H & B series boards to OC like the did with the G3258.

The R3-1200 doesn't need an aftermarket cooler. From what I've seen, most people at 3.8 - 4.0 hit 75 degrees max on the stock cooler. That's more than safe.
You brought up another negative for the 8350k, you're going to need to add the cost of a cooler which adds even more to the price of that Intel platform because it will either come with the stock intel garbage or none at all. 212's drop down to $20 fairly often btw, newegg has one for that price AR right now.
So now we're $60 extra for the intel platform.


Another great reaction from intel would be to include a cooler that's worth a damn. Another benefit with the AMD is the socket will be good until 2020. Who knows how long Intel will keep using this socket.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I pay attention to motherboard costs, Jefferz, as I reminded you of this consideration most recently following the launch of Ryzen when I advocated for it, but it appears you're overlooking the critical detail that I was comparing overclockable builds to overclockable builds.

That's not the case in this hypothetical. Since the i5-7600K/i3-8350K at stock roundly smashes a max overclocked R5-1400 we don't have to worry about procuring a Z370 motherboard (my presumption is that you're sampling the current Z270 motherboards for pricing). There are $55 MicroATX Intel B250 motherboards available: $5 cheaper than the cheapest AMD B350 motherboard I'm currently seeing on PCPP.

The quality of the new Ryzen coolers is pleasing, but the R5-1400 only carries the Wraith Stealth, not the Wraith Spire, so it's using the weakest of the three new Ryzen coolers; not the same one as in the R5-1600 or R7 processors. Furthermore, that doesn't mean the Spire itself is equal to the Hyper 212 EVO, or that it will run as quiet (or keep your CPU as cool) although it measures up respectably for a stock cooler. You're reaching into apples-to-oranges territory struggling to see the bright side for the R5-1400.

There should also be cheaper aftermarket cooler options available to the Intel that can match the old stock Intel cooler's performance starting at the lowest $10 range: if the only concern is cooling stock frequencies, after all. I actually like Intel admitting that nobody who buys unlocked processors is ever happy with the stock coolers, and plans to get their own. Now the choice is the consumer's. You aren't forced to buy something you're going to peel off and throw away.

Finally, concerning cost, if we're comparing an OC'd R5-1400 build vs. a Stock i3-8350K build, then the PSU could also become a factor, and neutralize the gain in savings for AMD made on the motherboard.

So, in fact, an OC'd R5-1400 vs. a Stock i3-8350 is theoretically a ~$18 premium for the Intel build, before we look at PSUs, and that's using the announced Intel MSRP vs. the current market low price for the R5-1400 (MSRP was $170). How much is a warranty worth? How much is silence? How much is less hot air in the case breathing on your GPU and other components?

It's no different if you overclock. Let's penalize Intel that $70 by requiring the Hyper 212 EVO for it at the normal price of $30, and add the $40 premium on the Z370 motherboard, but let's not forget the value of what was bought:
  • i3-8350K can be expected to ~30% superior strictly in overclocked quad core performance (on EVO 212 cooler...40% max possible OC advantage)
  • Intel Z370 ATX motherboard vs. AMD B350 Micro-ATX motherboard (the former will have more features and ports which give a motherboard its value)
  • Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO vs. AMD Wraith Stealth
If my build comes out to over $600 I sure as hell don't want to spend that money on 1/3 less CPU power. The strategy you're pursuing appears to be most attractive to overclockers who want to combine the R3-1200 [email protected] + B350 Motherboard + GTX 1050 for the ultimate eSport-class value, or something like that. So AMD can sell to those guys, and Intel will sell the i3-8100 to everyone else.
 
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Madmick said:
Just keep in mind that the a Z270 board can run the i7-7700K (@4.2/4.5) as its premier chipset, or the i5-7600K (@3.8/4.2) that interests you.

We're about to enter a limbo world for the next year or two. The reason for the limbo is that Intel has always maintained general gaming dominance due to the fact it rules in terms of instructions per clock (i.e. IPC) performance, but for the first time, it is expanding its mainstream processors to six cores. What this means is that for a short time we might expect the 7700K (and quad core i3-8350K) to still rule the overall gaming landscape in terms of performance due to their higher core clock frequency; it's unclear in the case of the upcoming i3s.

In fact, even on the gaming benchmarks, which always focus on the most sophisticated (i.e. Vulkan/DX12) and demanding titles that take better advantage of multicore scaling, the 7700K is still basically tied as the top performer at stock with the Broadwell-E hexa core i7-6850K (@3.6/3.8). The major advantage these new Coffee Lake hexa core chips have over that older 6850K appears to be the elevated Turbo Mode clocks: i7-8700K (@3.7/4.7) and i5-8600K (@3.6/4.6) indicating a much higher single thread-- and gaming performance-- potential.

It's reasonable to expect another 5%-7% IPC advancement similar to what Kaby Lake offered over Skylake, and not much less than what Skylake offered over Broadwell/Haswell. That means that any quad core chipset upgrade over the i5-7600K for you isn't worth the motherboard hassle for you, and should be out of the question. After all, since we're discussing an i5 purchase, value is already a consideration. So unless you are upgrading to the i5-8600K or i7-8700K, don't bother. You'd be incurring a substantial cost for a nominal performance improvement. Similarly, for the reasons elucidated above, you might not expect any insane improvement in actual gaming performance from the 8600K and 8700K themselves.


I will also predict that despite Intel's exceptional inventory controls that, yes, you will likely see a drop in price drop on the 7600K. The reason for this is the hexacore shift. Jefferz is using generational shifts as a paradigm that all saw quad core succeeded by quad core. We have an actual core-shift taking place here: the first in a decade. So suddenly the current i5 king, the i5-7600K, is going to face a massive value deficiency against its immediate brand successor, the i5-8600K, and also its true successor, the i3-8350K, that its predecessors did not respectively face. I have a hard time seeing how it will not drop below $200 as a market value because of that.

It may later rise due to demand drawn from motherboards needing chips, but compatibility issues arising from scarcity of platform are a separate market phenomenon in tech.
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I've seen the 7600k as low as $190 and the 7700k as low as $280. These prices are pretty damn great and are making me seriously think about going z270 now and waiting the 3 years for PCIe 5.0
 
mr.bigglesworth said:
I've seen the 7600k as low as $190 and the 7700k as low as $280. These prices are pretty damn great and are making me seriously think about going z270 now and waiting the 3 years for PCIe 5.0
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why would you wait for PCIe 5? We're not even maxing out PCIe 3.0 atm. We've only seen 2.0 get maxed out very recently, it's been around since 2007.
 
jefferz said:
why would you wait for PCIe 5? We're not even maxing out PCIe 3.0 atm. We've only seen 2.0 get maxed out very recently, it's been around since 2007.
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http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pcie-4.0-5.0-pci-sig-specfication,35325.html

I blame this article and a hunch that we've got some rapid advancement slated for us PC users sooner rather than later due to massive enterprise investment in AI and compute.

PCI-SIG representatives attributed part of the delay to industry stagnation. The PCIe 3.0 interface was sufficient for storage, networking, graphics cards, and other devices, for the first several years after its introduction. Over the last two years, a sudden wellspring of innovation exposed PCIe 3.0's throughput deficiencies. Artificial intelligence craves increased GPU throughput, storage devices are migrating to the PCIe bus with the NVMe protocol, and as a result, networking suddenly has an insatiable appetite for more bandwidth.
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On Nvidia front the 1070 ti is coming out Oct. 26. It''s a beast basically a 1080 without GDDR 5X ram just GDDR 5. The thing smokes the 1070 itself according to testers.
 
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