New Weight Classes - Realignment

[Sinthesized]

I'm all for eliminating 170 and adding 165 and 175 but that is the only change that I want to see right now. There is not nearly enough depth to add a 195 lbs class currently.

And Cormier is absolutely not making 195. Not without a hell of a lot of towels anyway.

He's about to retire so why would it matter?

 

[LouisBolanos]

The biggest name can't fight each other every night, on every match.

Yes, and that's why the flexibility offered by the old Pride structure was the best for entertainment. You can have your regular even matches, but when opportunities present themselves as they often do, give the fans their mismatches. Cyborg vs. man. MM vs. really bad HW. Conor vs. Brock. Anyone who claim these are not appealing to the larger, casual fanbase in the absence of regulatory restrictions is lying to themselves.

Tell me I am wrong. Tell me you believe an open weight league is more appealing in terms of techniques and tactics. Do you have more less when the fight has a significant weight difference?

You are 100% wrong.The average MMA fan is a causal who can't tell the difference between a triangle and a gogoplata. The average MMA fan thought Ronda had amazing boxing. The average fan doesn't know or care jack shit about techniques and tactics, they want big names, big drama, big insults, JUST BLEED and highlight reel finish, and that's why your entire premise is bullshit.

Ronda bullrushing with zero head movement and arm punching her way to a KO finish against an utterly over-matched Brazilian accountant while Rogan is screaming at the top of his lungs is 100x more entertaining to the average fan than TJ completely shutting down Lineker's dangerous offense with brilliant footwork and striking on way to a UD.

So yeah, let me tell you again: you couldn't be more wrong.

You want to disturb the base and standard of MMA to indulge in spectacle.

My point is the standard wasn't there to begin with and it wasn't there in Japan, where MMA reached the highest level of mainstream awareness compared to any other country.

There's nothing wrong with disturbing the status quo when the status quo is WRONG. Racial segregation used to be the status quo because people agreed loooong ago that colored people were not equal to whites. Goes to show just because something is the established standard and agreed upon looong ago, doesn't mean it should stay that way.

And what's wrong with indulging in spectacle when MMA is all about ENTERTAINMENT? You're literally contradicting yourself.

and the proof this is what sells in the long term is UFC being the best and PRIDE, StrikeForce and EliteXC being dead.

Pride's demise had everything to do with their shady business practices and nothing to do with them having mismatches, stop being dishonest.

Fight fans do not gravitate to mismatched competition. Nobody does. ITs a side show

The biggest PPV involving an MMA fighter by far was a mismatch between 0-0 and 49-0. YouTube sensation Kimbo Slice posted the biggest ratings in MMA on US TV. You're in complete denial.

 

[brian]

Eliminate 125 & 170 & then add 165 & 175 is the UFC's best move.

 

[rpn453]

Also, I think without weight classes guys like BJ, Conor, Mayweather and GSP would never be famous to begin with. They'd just be mediocre fighters who seem pretty good for their size. By having weight classes to demonstrate who is the most skilled, it becomes interesting to see how they'd fare against larger highly skilled fighters.

I think we just need more superfights. Cormier-Miocic is a great match-up. DJ-TJ at 135 is easily DJ's most interesting fight. How about TJ-Holloway, Woodley-Whittaker, or Holloway vs. whoever they're calling champ at LW these days.

More weight classes with tighter spacing should mean more superfights. Just don't make the spacing too tight to the point that we can't see the size difference anymore.

 

[LouisBolanos]

Everybody knows the smaller divisions are essentially the minor leagues for guys who can't compete against the best fighters

That's not true at all. Plenty of people use P4P fantasy arguments to claim that MM is "one of the best fighters there is", not just fans, but also fighters in heavier weight classes, trainers, journalists, analysts and the like. It's an epidemic in this sport. If everyone acknowledges them for who they really are like you just did we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Since weight classes are staying, it would be nice to have smaller increments for the huge talent pool between LW and MW where most lean men reside; to allow them more options to find an appropriate weight class for their size.

The problem is adding more weight classes won't fix weight cutting problems, because someone cutting down to 170 can now cut to 165. All you're doing is fragmenting the talent (regardless of how rich the talent is in any division, it's always more entertaining to have less segregation so more fighters can fight each other without the complication of crossing weight classes), and more importantly, destroying a legacy division that is 170, and creating 2 new ones at 165 and 175 with no history, so what would be the point?

 

[Ghostoftheville]

I know yerr joking but UFC's views and ratings would absolutely skyrocket if we had only 4 belts:

Just these 4 and nothing else. FW, BW and WMMA has never sold anything and are a complete bore and snooze. I would miss LHW but they can all man up and go to HW.

Rousey, Holm, and Cyborg have better PPV numbers than every reigning champ save for DC vs Jones

 

[SuperNerd]

You are 100% wrong.The average MMA fan is a causal who can't tell the difference between a triangle and a gogoplata. The average MMA fan thought Ronda had amazing boxing. The average fan doesn't know or care jack shit about techniques and tactics, they want big names, big drama, big insults, JUST BLEED and highlight reel finish, and that's why your entire premise is bullshit.

So you believe there are more tactics and techniques available to a fighter who is out sized? No you don't, for a third time you've misdirected this point, and I will not attempt to wrestle you into the discussion if you don't want it.

There are no super fights for casuals without hardcore fans who care about the day-to-day workings of MMA.

The mass majority of fights that are promoted, are promoted for fight fans. So to change the entire landscape of how MMA is conducted to serve the odd minority, is not helping anyone.

it's a step backwards, only to learn, people who like to watch fighting, sometimes like watching 125ers fight each other too. There is a market for it, that's why it exists.

That's not true at all. Plenty of people use P4P fantasy arguments to claim that MM is "one of the best fighters there is", not just fans, but also fighters in heavier weight classes, trainers, journalists, analysts and the like. It's an epidemic in this sport. If everyone acknowledges them for who they really are like you just did we wouldn't be having this discussion

This is clearly the source of your frustration.

The epidemic of the p4p discussion.

At this point, I don't even know what your stance is. You're just flailing like a libtard.

The biggest PPV involving an MMA fighter by far was a mismatch between 0-0 and 49-0. YouTube sensation Kimbo Slice posted the biggest ratings in MMA on US TV. You're in complete denial.

And again, the long term? How did that pan out?

The free market should prove you right in time. Combat sports is only a couple 100 years old.

 

[rpn453]

That's not true at all. Plenty of people use P4P fantasy arguments to claim that MM is "one of the best fighters there is", not just fans, but also fighters in heavier weight classes, trainers, journalists, analysts and the like. It's an epidemic in this sport. If everyone acknowledges them for who they really are like you just did we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You're right that many people don't explicitly say it that way. They don't want to come across as disrespectful, but they know it's true. I'm fine saying it that way because I don't think it is disrespectful. It's just the way it is. We are limited by the bodies we were born into.

The problem is adding more weight classes won't fix weight cutting problems, because someone cutting down to 170 can now cut to 165. All you're doing is fragmenting the talent (regardless of how rich the talent is in any division, it's always more entertaining to have less segregation so more fighters can fight each other without the complication of crossing weight classes), and more importantly, destroying a legacy division that is 170, and creating 2 new ones at 165 and 175 with no history, so what would be the point?

I don't want to fix weight cutting problems. I don't think severe weight cutting has ever proven to be the advantage it's made out to be. For me, it's part of the entertainment to see what certain guys will do to themselves to avoid better competition. I hope the old live weigh-in format returns. Those always got me hyped.

I think adding those divisions will be better for the guys who cut weight in a reasonable manner, and I think an extra belt will increase the number of interesting fights and hopefully generate more superfights. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

 

[LouisBolanos]

So you believe there are more tactics and techniques available to a fighter who is out sized? No you don't, for a third time you've misdirected this point, and I will not attempt to wrestle you into the discussion if you don't want it.

No, I'm telling you you're arguing a meaningless strawman, since what is and isn't appealing or entertaining to the average MMA fan has nothing to do with the amount of technique or tactics available. What is appealing to the average fan is name, drama and highlight reel finish, none of them have much to do with the amount of techniques available. In fact, a highlight reel finish is far more likely when there's a big mismatch in size and/or skill then in the case where experienced fighters are evenly matched.

What was more entertaining the the average fanbase at large: the mismatch that was Ronda vs. Bethe and Conor vs. Floyd, or any number of highly skilled, evenly matched fight? Are you so delusional you can't even answer this simple question?

You're literally doing the Cathy Newman shtick with this "so you believe" nonsense while offering no counter argument against anything I've said.

There are no super fights for casuals without hardcore fans who care about the day-to-day workings of MMA.

Wrong. Logan Paul vs Jake Paul superfight on YouTube can do crazy numbers and it has shit to do with hardcores. Hardcores were only relevant during the early stages of the sport when it was completely unknown and spreading via word of mouth. The sport has gone way past critical mass, it has mainstream awareness, and hardcores are next to worthless in 2018. It's the casuals that keep the UFC profitable at its current scale, they're the reason why ESPN is paying hundreds of millions a year for broadcasting rights, they're the reason WME-IMG Paid over 4 billion. People living inside the bubble like you have a laughably inflated sense of self worth.

The mass majority of fights that are promoted, are promoted for fight fans. So to change the entire landscape of how MMA is conducted to serve the odd minority, is not helping anyone.

You know how you can tell when a so-called hardcore MMA fan is in denial? When they start calling the much larger casual fanbase and their interest "odd minority". Yeah. 6.7 million PPV is the odd minority. One fighter responsible for over 50% of the PPV UFC revenue is an odd minority. You talk about MMA being entertainment, but you clearly have no clue what that word means in this sport.

it's a step backwards, only to learn, people who like to watch fighting, sometimes like watching 125ers fight each other too. There is a market for it, that's why it exists.

Removing segregation based on physical appearance is a step backwards?

WOW, now I really have heard everything. Let's bring back ssegregation

This is clearly the source of your frustration.

The epidemic of the p4p discussion.

If we removed weight classes there will be no P4P discussion, because MM would be murked on the midwest regional circuit by Travis Fulton and never even made it into the UFC. Muggsy Bogues is 5'3" and played in the NBA for over 10 seasons. "P4P", he is far and away beyond any of the current NBA "GOATs" in terms of skill, yet you never hear anyone mention his name in the GOAT discussion, because his size makes him a mediocre player, despite being 10x the athlete that MM is and having 10x the balls.

 

[SuperNerd]

You're literally doing the Cathy Newman shtick with this "so you believe" nonsense while offering no counter argument against anything I've said.

It was posed in the form of a question, and rhetorical. I'm literally asking you to clarify your stance. I don't know what it is, you keep derailing my points and making none. Stop being purposely difficult and say something. I've asked you the same question 3 times, and you've said no three times, and answered your own made up question after.

And again you avoided the question. Let's move on to the bigger point of the question.. You want to excuse as a strawman, finally something.

No, I'm telling you you're arguing a meaningless strawman, since what is and isn't appealing or entertaining to the average MMA fan has nothing to do with the amount of technique or tactics available. What is appealing to the average fan is name, drama and highlight reel finish, none of them have much to do with the amount of techniques available. In fact, a highlight reel finish is far more likely when there's a big mismatch in size and/or skill then in the case where experienced fighters are evenly matched.

The casual, does not care about these things. I agree, and every fight is not for the casual. The sport base is not sustained by casuals. The sport, isn't for the casual, the big event is. The big event cannot carry the sport. Fight fans carry the sport. Same with boxing.

If the suggestion you've posed is open weight leagues are better, than a divisional league, for fight fans, I do not buy that. I don't believe the fight community has any interest in that.

Removing segregation based on physical appearance is a step backwards?

WOW, now I really have heard everything. Let's bring back ssegregation

lol. jeez dude.

If we removed weight classes there will be no P4P discussion, because MM would be murked on the midwest regional circuit by Travis Fulton and never even made it into the UFC. Muggsy Bogues is 5'3" and played in the NBA for over 10 seasons. "P4P", he is far and away beyond any of the current NBA "GOATs" in terms of skill, yet you never hear anyone mention his name in the GOAT discussion, because his size makes him a mediocre player, despite being 10x the athlete that MM is and having 10x the balls.

Lol I'm sorry this bothers you.

 

[LouisBolanos]

It was posed in the form of a question. I'm litterally asking you to clarify your stance. I don't know what it is, you keep derailing my points and making none. Stop being purposely difficult and say something. I've asked you the same question 3 times, and you've said no three times, and answered your own made up question after.

And again you avoided the question. Let's move on to the bigger point of the question.. You want to excuse as a strawman, finally something.

Your question was do mismatches offer more tactics, the answer is obviously no, in general they do not. I didn't answer it because it is a completely irrelevant question that has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Wanna know why? Because casuals do not care about tactics.

The casual, does not care about these things. I agree, and every fight is not for the casual. The sport base is not sustained by casuals. The sport, isn't for the casual, the big event is. The big event cannot carry the sport.

The sport, in particular the UFC, at its current scale, is absolutely sustained by the casuals. The hardcores are the 90k-100k people who buy every single UFC PPV, plus the forum hardcores that stream 95% of everything who contribute next to nothing financially to the UFC. Together they amount to exactly jack shit. 100k does not explain the 4+ billion price tag, it does not explain the 250 million/year rights fees, it does not explain how Conor alone is responsible for over 50% of the PPV revenue the year he was active. Your inflated sense of self worth is absurd. As long as UFC wants to maintain its current scale or keep growing, the casuals will always matter way more to them than the hardcores. If this sport is about entertainment, then what matters the most to the UFC should be "how to entertain the average casual", that's the be-all end-all.

If the suggestion you've posed open weight leagues are better, than a divisional league, for fight fans, I do not buy that. I don't believe the fight community has any interest in that.

You're not buying because you're in denial. The evidence is literally staring at you right in the face. Biggest fight ever involving an MMA fighter = completely mismatch. Highest level the sport has ever reached in any country = Pride in Japan, filled with freakshows and mismatches. Biggest TV ratings in MMA = Kimbo Slice, street fighter who fights open weight on YouTube. "The fight community" as you call it is a vocal hardcore minority that does not matter. If everyone on Sherdog dies tomorrow, Conor will still sell well over 2 million PPVs fighting Brock.

 

[SuperNerd]

You're not buying because you're in denial. The evidence is literally staring at you right in the face. Biggest fight ever involving an MMA fighter = completely mismatch. Highest level the sport has ever reached in any country = Pride in Japan, filled with freakshows and mismatches. Biggest TV ratings in MMA = Kimbo Slice, street fighter who fights open weight on YouTube.

Dead companies that had questionable legitimacy.

UFC protects it's image, and their ability to wrangle casuals during big events/moments/characters, via legitimacy granted from the fight community.

I still don't know what you're suggestion is. You believe the UFC opened a strictly open weight class, it would appeal to a greater amount of fans? Maybe for a couple months. Those casuals who would stay, would turn into a fight fans and fight fans would want to see the techniques, styles, tactics of different types of fighters.

I bet if UFC switches to openweight, Bellator becomes the #1 MMA promotion in 2 years, heavily due to the different styles, tactics and techniques available to be seen.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

The UFC should adjust and add some weight classes. Here is the new proposed weight classes with the Champions assigned.

• Flyweight. 125 lb - Demetrious Johnson
  
• Bantamweight. 135 lb - TJ Dillashaw
  
• Featherweight. 145 lb - Max Holloway
  
• Lightweight. 155 lb - Khabib Nurmagomedov
  
• Super lightweight. 165 lb - Tyrone Woodley (or he can leave open)
  
• Welterweight. 175 lb - Tyrone Woodley
  
• Middleweight 185 lb - Robert Whitaker
  
• Super Middleweight 195 lbs - Daniel Cormier (or he can leave open)
  
• Light Heavyweight 205 - Daniel Cormier
  
• Heavyweight 265 - Stipe Miocic
  
• Open Class (Any Weight) - Stipe Miocic (or he can leave open)

The new adds are at 165 - 195 - and Open Weight. I think this will help more champion vs. champion fights and the Open Class would be awesome. Mighty Mouse can take a crack at anyone... once he's done ducking TJ.

Thoughts?

Hate it.

First control weight cutting or reconstruction of weight classes is pointless.

Second the only division that needs to be added the 225 division. If you probably control weight cutting 80%+ is moving up a division. Hell I bet 10-20% is moving up 2 divisions.

Third if you properly control weight cutting with hydration testing the 125 and possibly 135 divisions will be eliminated.

 

[Kinger85]

more weight classes is the last thing in the world the UFC needs right now.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

I miss the old K-1 days... 2 weightclasses:

Openweight
Up to 155lbs / 70kgs

Fuck cutting weight.

 

[LouisBolanos]

Dead companies that had questionable legitimacy.

Since when do legitimacy have anything to do with entertainment?

Was Pride entertaining for the masses or not?

UFC protects it's image, and their ability to wrangle casuals during big events/moments/characters, via legitimacy granted from the fight community.

Conor's first title shot at LW against RDA was legitimate? Conor vs. Nate at WW was legitimate? Conor getting another shot at the LW title vs. Alvarez, after going 1-1 against Diaz was legitimate? Conor vs. Floyd was legitimate? Conor not fighting for 2 years and getting a title shot at LW vs. Khabib is legitimate? Brock getting suspended and potentially coming back to face winner of DC vs. Stipe is legitimate?

I've just named some of the biggest PPVs of the past and future. "Legitimacy", like "meritocracy", is the same kool aid UFC tries to sell to dummies, and you'er buying into it.

I still don't know what you're suggestion is. You believe the UFC opened a strictly open weight class, it would appeal to a greater amount of fans? Maybe for a couple months. Those casuals who would stay, would turn into a fight fans and fight fans would want to see the techniques, styles, tactics of different types of fighters.

Again with this inflated sense of self worth. It doesn't matter how many casuals become hardcores, hardcores will always remain a minority as long as the UFC teeters on the edge of a mainstream sport. There will always be far more casuals than hardcores, and they will always contribute far more financially to the UFC's bottom line.

The fact that you think people will stay for a couple of months is laughable. You think people would leave Ronda after a couple of months if the UFC keeps feeding her Bethe Correia level mismatches and she keeps destroying them? You think the average causal will care about Ronda getting even matches vs skillful opponents, more than they want to just see her ragdoll random bodies in Instagrammable videos? Nobody cares, and she would be able to keep milking that shit for years.

The masses will always tune in for spectacles when there's big name or big drama involved. They have never and will never care about techniques or mismatches. Conor can fight Logan Paul next and it will draw huge numbers. If he fights Trump after that it will draw even bigger numbers. The the only people who would leave at that point are hardcores like you, and we've already established that you don't matter.

I bet if UFC switches to openweight, Bellator becomes the #1 MMA promotion in 2 years, heavily due to the different styles, tactics and techniques available to be seen.

Yeah, because the regulations would kill the UFC. I bet you if regulations didn't exist and the UFC can get the biggest names in all pop culture to fight each other, regardless of gender or weight classes, while Bellator maintains its current business model, then the UFC will become the biggest sporting event in the world. Trump vs. anyone would keep drawing til kingdom come.

You do know that WWE exists and is popular as hell, don't you? Now imagine a version of WWE where the fights are actually real, more violent and the stars are bigger. Tell me again why people would leave after a couple of months.

 

[Loriquero]

I'm going to write in Kilograms. Rest of the world>Murica.

FLW limit: 55KG and not 56.7
BW limit: 59KG and not 61.2
FW limit: 64KG and not 65.7
LW limit: 69KG and not 70.3KG
WW limit: 74KG and not 77.1KG
MW limit: 80KG and not 83.9
LHW limit: 88 and not 92.9KG
Make a Cruiser Weight with 99KG limit.
HW: no weight limit.

Let the current champions decide whether they want to pick the lower division belt or the higher one. If there are conflicts (example: Woodley and Withaker want the new MW belt or Cormier and Miocic want the CW belt) make them fight for that belt.

If they make a new Super LW division without moving the limits they have right now it would become a joke. Only 2KG between some categories. They can cut that in 8 hours of sauna and dehydratation.

-The new LW limit (69KG) would be ideal for small LW or big FW like T-City, Guida, Stephens, Poirier, Pettis, Jury, Iaquinta, Eddie, Chandler, Holloway...

-The new WW limit (74KG) would be awesome for Khabib, Gunny, Masvidal, Nate, Barboza, GSP, RDA... It would become MMA best division by far.

- The new MW limit (80KG) would be wonderful for Maia, Wonderboy, Lawler, Condit, Magny, Ponizibio, Marreta, Whittaker, Gastelum, Nick Diaz... Even Post TRT Vitor would have some chance here. Imagine all those guys fighting each other... Woodley would fit here or in the new WW. Imagine Rory around that pack...

- New LHW limit (88kg) would be great for Romero, Rockhard, Weidman, Spider, Jacaré, Brunson, Shogun, Lyoto...

- The prime new CW (99kg) would be populated by the likes of JJ, Gus, Texeira, Oezdemir, Manuwa, Corey, OSP, Cain, JDS, Werdum, Overeem, Stipe... Even Fedor, Bader, Phil Davis, Nelson...

-Sacrifice the HW, It would be Gnannou, Volkov and freakland. Hunto, Struve etc. It would open the chance to see Arthur Jones or the Shaq on the octagon.

HW would become more horrible, but these new division limits would save the devastated LHW division and would make MW and WW a lot better. CS would be interesting also.

You are welcome UFC.

 

[SuperNerd]

Since when do legitimacy have anything to do with entertainment?

Since earth.

Conor's first title shot at LW against RDA was legitimate? Conor vs. Nate at WW was legitimate? Conor getting another shot at the LW title vs. Alvarez, after going 1-1 against Diaz was legitimate? Conor vs. Floyd was legitimate? Conor not fighting for 2 years and getting a title shot at LW vs. Khabib is legitimate? Brock getting suspended and potentially coming back to face winner of DC vs. Stipe is legitimate?

I've just named some of the biggest PPVs of the past and future. "Legitimacy", like "meritocracy", is the same kool aid UFC tries to sell to dummies, and you'er buying into it.

Yes, they weight the same size. The UFC is legitimate in the eyes of the public, even in spite of the odd poor match ups.

You think people would leave Ronda after a couple of months if the UFC keeps feeding her Bethe Correia level mismatches and she keeps destroying them?

Ronda Rousey is a character. She is special. You cannot create a Ronda Rousey. You think people will continue to watch Steve Joe sit on cans? You keep justifying anything with star power. You only see the peaks.

This is nonsense, you're again missing the point of having a legit base for athletes to compete in, and create moments and big events. When I say "fight community" I don't mean just us. I mean competitors, coaches, guy who have to risk their health and time in this game.

I don't think these guys have interest in a open weight league, and without their approval, UFC eventually dies.

Yeah, because the regulations would kill the UFC. I bet you if regulations didn't exist and the UFC can get the biggest names in all pop culture to fight each other, regardless of gender or weight classes, while Bellator maintains its current business model, then the UFC will become the biggest sporting event in the world. Trump vs. anyone would keep drawing til kingdom come.

Regulation isn't stopping pop stars for fighting in the UFC.

This is ultimately what you've been trying to get across? Lol thanks.

There is also a market for 125ers, the UFC is going to milk everything they can get.

 

[SuperNerd]

I'm going to write in Kilograms. Rest of the world>Murica..

Might as well swtich to a white belt too. Nobody reading that

 

[brawlnsprawl]

Go back to 155 and up