Muay thai belt system

[Big Nasty Edison]

The only benefit I could see to it is an internal thing a gym would do if they have a lot of students so the instructors can easily discern "this guy has been here a long time" to new students but would have to say "but this is only for our gym and is not an official part of muay thai".

Like I would be ok with being a part of a club that did that as long as they made sure everyone understood it is in house only and no one would recognize the aspect outside of that particular club.

 

[DaGenius]

it is a sign of a Mc-Dojo, so is having to earn thai shorts...

I would generally agree on it being a mcdojo sign HOWEVER I actually know a reputable MT gym owner in the valley who uses a belt system at his gym. I always call him out on it and tell him respectfully that its nonsense whenever I see him but the training at his gym is legit. But by en large I agree with you.

Earning thai shorts..wow..never heard of that.

 

[SummerStriker]

What if you get a black belt in MT and at the time of your grade, you perform better than a black belt in TKD?

This just goes back to the meaning of a black belt. Is the purpose to be able to tell people what to do, is it to obtain a coming of age and degree of manliness that comes from learning to fight - the black belt as a coming of age ceremony, or is the purpose to finish martial arts and teach as a master?

You can probably tell that I think that the black belt test is a coming of age trial and that the purpose is to have a goal of obtaining martial proficiency, with a marker to let you know you have arrived at a respectable level of adult strength.

It is not to be used to tell other people what to do or to gain or get favors from people. A 7th Dan in Kyokushin is just a guy to me and I could give a damn about what he thinks about anything in life other than how to train in karate. I show respect to anyone I'm training with or under because at some point I will put my health in their hands. That doesn't mean - "that they are the boss of me."

People who worry about a black belt being "legit" are missing the point. In real life a black belt, even in BJJ, means about as much as a coffee mug that say, "worlds best guy." No one cares. It means jack shit to the world.

To you, the black belt will seem like a minor stepping stone on your way after you practice for 10 more years after you get it, and come to see black belts as children.

Black belts mean the most in clubs where it lets you travel around roleplaying Japanese army, telling strangers what to do. That, to me, is tasteless.

I think a black belt is just as meaningful as it can be when applied to any martial art when given to any practitioner who no longer fears training with strangers.

 

[Paradigm]

What if you get a black belt in MT and at the time of your grade, you perform better than a black belt in TKD?

This just goes back to the meaning of a black belt. Is the purpose to be able to tell people what to do, is it to obtain a coming of age and degree of manliness that comes from learning to fight - the black belt as a coming of age ceremony, or is the purpose to finish martial arts and teach as a master?

You can probably tell that I think that the black belt test is a coming of age trial and that the purpose is to have a goal of obtaining martial proficiency, with a marker to let you know you have arrived at a respectable level of adult strength.

It is not to be used to tell other people what to do or to gain or get favors from people. A 7th Dan in Kyokushin is just a guy to me and I could give a damn about what he thinks about anything in life other than how to train in karate. I show respect to anyone I'm training with or under because at some point I will put my health in their hands. That doesn't mean - "that they are the boss of me."

People who worry about a black belt being "legit" are missing the point. In real life a black belt, even in BJJ, means about as much as a coffee mug that say, "worlds best guy." No one cares. It means jack shit to the world.

To you, the black belt will seem like a minor stepping stone on your way after you practice for 10 more years after you get it, and come to see black belts as children.

Black belts mean the most in clubs where it lets you travel around roleplaying Japanese army, telling strangers what to do. That, to me, is tasteless.

I think a black belt is just as meaningful as it can be when applied to any martial art when given to any practitioner who no longer fears training with strangers.

well, there is no black belt in MT...hence why the whole thing is ridiculous.

 

[SummerStriker]

well, there is no black belt in MT...hence why the whole thing is ridiculous.

Anyone who teaches MT can make up a black belt and if someone works hard and gets it, then their student has a black belt in MT. If the one true Scotsman tell him that he doesn't respect his public accolade and that real MT doesn't have belts, he is welcome to his opinion, but to me, his opinion doesn't mean anything.

Martial artists get belts. MT is a martial art. MT should have belts. If an MT instructor makes up a belt system, it is just as genuine as every other belt system. It means the same.

Belts don't mean anything to me. I've never cared about testing for belts anywhere I've trained sense I've been an adult. The only ranks I have are in Kali and Silat, and I didn't ask for them. I was handed them, probably so I could teach class.

But if someone tells me they are 6 and 1 in MT or a 3rd degree black belt in MT, both mean the same to me - jack shit. I'll decide what I think of you after we spar. If we don't spar, I'm happy to act like I believe anything you tell me about yourself.

What I find silly is supposedly serious martial artists caring about someone getting a belt in a martial art. Belts are for people just beginning their martial arts journey. They are obviously stupid. They don't usually reflect much skill and the reason is because most people don't get good in 2-5 years. They get ok. 10 years later when they are actually sweet, they have probably graduated to big boy thinking and think hashing out who is what rank isn't important to them. Once you are all grown up in the martial arts, you only care about learning or having a good time sparring or competing. Worrying about who is what rank is for bored lineage police, people that like to role play samurai, and people just starting martial arts.

 

[Paradigm]

Anyone who teaches MT can make up a black belt and if someone works hard and gets it, then their student has a black belt in MT. If the one true Scotsman tell him that he doesn't respect his public accolade and that real MT doesn't have belts, he is welcome to his opinion, but to me, his opinion doesn't mean anything.

Martial artists get belts. MT is a martial art. MT should have belts. If an MT instructor makes up a belt system, it is just as genuine as every other belt system. It means the same.

Belts don't mean anything to me. I've never cared about testing for belts anywhere I've trained sense I've been an adult. The only ranks I have are in Kali and Silat, and I didn't ask for them. I was handed them, probably so I could teach class.

But if someone tells me they are 6 and 1 in MT or a 3rd degree black belt in MT, both mean the same to me - jack shit. I'll decide what I think of you after we spar. If we don't spar, I'm happy to act like I believe anything you tell me about yourself.

What I find silly is supposedly serious martial artists caring about someone getting a belt in a martial art. Belts are for people just beginning their martial arts journey. They are obviously stupid. They don't usually reflect much skill and the reason is because most people don't get good in 2-5 years. They get ok. 10 years later when they are actually sweet, they have probably graduated to big boy thinking and think hashing out who is what rank isn't important to them. Once you are all grown up in the martial arts, you only care about learning or having a good time sparring or competing. Worrying about who is what rank is for bored lineage police, people that like to role play samurai, and people just starting martial arts.

1) by your rationale, boxing and wrestling should have black belts also

2) also by your rationale, belts are useless to serious martial artists...isn't it a good thing that MT doesn't have belts then?

 

[SummerStriker]

My point is that belts wouldn't be around if beginners and teachers didn't find them motivating and useful.

People who have internal motivation will outgrow the belts eventually and surpass them.

How many guys do you know who took one fight, then quit, win or lose? Tons for me. Some people want the external reward of a fight or a belt and once they have it, quit. Some people have or develop internal motivation, the real artists, carry on past that. For them, what do they care about other people's public accolades?

I think that if someone was a real tough guy in MT and someone told him that they have a black belt in MT, he should say, "I'm glad that you enjoy our martial art so much."

What he shouldn't be is offended some tool thinks the belt makes him tough. If he is offended, he's missing the point of martial arts, of finding and knowing yourself. He's just another guy hunting public accolades and afraid some guy is belly up to the troff, getting pussy or money instead of him.

I don't do martial arts for congratulation or belts. I don't do it so that people respect me as a tough guy. I do it for myself. I used to care about belts when I was a kid but when I became an adult I put them away. If someone brags to me they are a tough guy because they fight, or have a belt, or lift weights, or bar fight or whatever, I just take their word for it. I'm sure they are very tough. Unless they have something to teach or are a good sparring partner, they are useless to me and I don't actually care what they have to say.

What I'm not going to do is interrupt them and say, "nuh uh, you aren't tough, I bench 350 and am 5 and 2 and have a black belt signed by karate Jesus so I'm the actual tough one and everyone standing around should respect me more than you."

To me, that is kids stuff.

 

[EffeKt]

Muay Thai what system?

My belt is in the ring.

 

[Pearse Shields]

Anyone who teaches MT can make up a black belt and if someone works hard and gets it, then their student has a black belt in MT.

Brb, going to make up a "Gold with flame patterns and skulls and dragons" belt and give it to myself.

It is not legit, because it is not a traditional part of the martial art. Muay Thai has no internal ranking systems, and to impose one is ridiculous. You earn your ranking, and when you can no longer hold that ranking, you must earn it again. Doesn't work that way with belts. Never have I heard of someone being demoted a tab on their belt for losing a fight.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

Earning thai shorts..wow..never heard of that.

they are all over youtube

 

[nomilkforsanta]

My point is that belts wouldn't be around if beginners and teachers didn't find them motivating and useful.

I feel that most belts systems are around for covetous gym owners to make money. Century Martial art in their Martial Art Success magazine (i.e., for gym owners) talk about how belts and patches are a great revenue stream. They also talk about using as many belts as possible (i.e. different colors, stripes, and sometimes length) to make the most money as you can.

The only two martial arts where I recognize black belts are BJJ (expect the gracie combative blue belt) and luta libra. This is because most coaches require winning fights (in house and formal competition) to be promoted, so the belts are based off of fight performance, not *effort and **money. If a schools browns belts always fail in the brown belt division, the teacher is either promoting students to quickly or he is a terrible instructor.

*the gracies are known to give celebrities belts before they are ready (i.e., Dr 90210)

**Sadly, man BJJ schools are turning into Mc-Dojos and requiring students to pay for belt testing. Instead of being given a belt randomly then forced to run the gauntlet.

Edit: spelling

 

[bowlie]

I asked about this in my thread about K-star becasue they had a ranking system and it confused me. Anyways, I did some research, and it seems like muay thai has an arm band system, that works the same way as belts. Its a legitimate thai thing apparently, but not often used by the sounds of it.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

I asked about this in my thread about K-star becasue they had a ranking system and it confused me. Anyways, I did some research, and it seems like muay thai has an arm band system, that works the same way as belts. Its a legitimate thai thing apparently, but not often used by the sounds of it.

Prajioud (arm bads) are only for spiritual protection and respect and have never been for ranking, or at least that is what I have read.

 

[Pearse Shields]

Prajioud (arm bads) are only for spiritual protection and respect and have never been for ranking, or at least that is what I have read.

Pretty much this.

Nice av by the way, Zoolander's been a favourite of mine for a long time.

 

[bowlie]

Prajioud (arm bads) are only for spiritual protection and respect and have never been for ranking, or at least that is what I have read.

Ok fair enough.

 

[SummerStriker]

Brb, going to make up a "Gold with flame patterns and skulls and dragons" belt and give it to myself.

It is not legit, because it is not a traditional part of the martial art. Muay Thai has no internal ranking systems, and to impose one is ridiculous. You earn your ranking, and when you can no longer hold that ranking, you must earn it again. Doesn't work that way with belts. Never have I heard of someone being demoted a tab on their belt for losing a fight.

If Kano, Gracie, Bruce Lee, and Oyama can make up belt systems, so can everyone else. Something doesn't become legit just because it is old.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

If Kano, Gracie, Bruce Lee, and Oyama can make up belt systems, so can everyone else. Something doesn't become legit just because it is old.

It is to be noted that Kano invented the "modern" belt system which only consisted of white and black, with colored belts not being added until the 1930's.

 

[SummerStriker]

Another reason why I think belts would be good for Muay Thai is because most people I know who practice it coast without ever learning everything new. They can hold a clinch, knee, elbow, maybe do one throw, and perform throw away combos without regard for the opponent's response.

Almost no one teaching or learning Muay Thai is motivated to learn much. They get just enough to have a "game" and as long as they are winning, they don't bother. Unfortunately, everyone seems to be doing that and it is easier and easier to get away with being a champ by practicing like 4 combos on Thai pads and nothing else.

If they had a belt system, maybe they could learn something a little more technical. The instructor could feel like he has time to separate people out who are doing the same pad work for 5 years, which is basically no more valuable than jumping jacks, and actually teach them a counter or a new throw or something.

If you had like one trainer for one student, than sure, the student could eventually learn everything the instructor knows. But most people, even fighters, learn without private lessons in group classes unless they are rich or super talented. There is no system to anything they are learning. If they ever do learn a technique that isn't just a combo on pads, they see it once and then never again, and who knows where the move came from or where it is going.

I feel this way about BJJ also, with their first belt coming after 1-3 years. I've trained at gyms run by champs who really can do it, but their students man, don't know anything. Dudes that have been their for two years that know like 1 guard sweep and 1 way out of side mount, who do the same 3 transitions every time they roll. They learn a bunch of cute submission flows, but aren't ever pressured to remember any of it, and they can't. It is a waste of time.

They need more belts.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

But if someone tells me they are 6 and 1 in MT or a 3rd degree black belt in MT, both mean the same to me - jack shit. I'll decide what I think of you after we spar. If we don't spar, I'm happy to act like I believe anything you tell me about yourself.

so if someone is 6-1 in MT that doesn't mean shit to you? They've defeated 6 individuals who trained and fought to the best of their abilitys, and that doesn't mean shit?
Stay classy

 

[SummerStriker]

so if someone is 6-1 in MT that doesn't mean shit to you? They've defeated 6 individuals who trained and fought to the best of their abilitys, and that doesn't mean shit?
Stay classy

It doesn't mean that they actually know much martial arts, or that they weren't winning just because they were stronger physically and fighting people who thought too much of themselves (winning because you are stronger is so unimpressive because it means you are going to crumble if you ever fought someone out of your weight class, which is all I personally care about). Good for them for having a record. I hope that they get some personal satisfaction from it. That doesn't mean they are going to either teach me anything or be a decent sparring partner.