Moves that exist in Kung Fu that don't exist in karate or tkd?

[Frode Falch]

Flow instead of robotic moves

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Another thing is internal development (meditation, specific breathing exercises, etc.) which were part of not only "internal" styles such as Tai Chi, but also many external or "hard" styles.

A large portion of fighting is mental. Meditation and correct breathing is proven to benefit many vital processes, including the brain. How could that not help? Of course it would.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Flow instead of robotic moves

I get that the karate forms are robotic but the good karate fighters definitely have a flow to them like machida, whittaker and wonderboy. What did you think the kung fu guy in the video? Didnt you practice shaolin kung fu like him?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Many Kung Fu styles originated as weapon styles with the empty handed stuff being largely secondary and heavily derivative of the weapons moves. So you'll see these stances and movements in kung fu that look totally superfluous, but if you put a sword or spear in someone's hands all of a sudden they make a lot more sense. Many kung fu forms, for instance, will have these lunging two handed punching motions in them. Lunging two handed punches are pretty stupid. Lunging stabs with a spear using two hands aren't as stupid (that example comes for Xing I forms, but there are plenty like that). Many of the low, squatting stances that are pretty useless for hitting someone also feel a lot more natural when you're working with a long spear and need to have rotational stability. The two kung fu styles I studied somewhat in depth, Tai Chi and Ba Gua, both made a lot more sense when we'd do weapons sparring than when we did empty handed stuff. Even the grappling in Tai Chi makes a lot more sense when you both have swords in your hands. As I mentioned in another thread, there are strikes and throws in European long sword manuals and grappling was a big part of that style, but no one would suggest that if you isolate the grappling from sword fighting and try to make that an independent style that it's going to be competitive against someone trained in normal wrestling. The context is hugely important, and I think that's true of a lot of what you see in kung fu today.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Back to OP question: what stood out for me in some KF styles were the body slams. In Karate (and TKD) body to body contact is rare, most fighting is done at a distance (long to mid range). Sanda, Bagua and some other KF styles use the body to disrupt balance before striking or throwing in a very interesting way.

Perhaps not the best example but I don't know where to look:



Yellow guy is Bagua I believe.

In modern san shou rules you cannot strike from clinch, and you have to take down right away. You get no time to stay and work the clinch. If you cant take down right away you have to break out of body contact.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

A lot of the acrobatics in certain kung fu styles were done for the purpose of developing athleticism, which goes very far in an actual fight (similar to gymnastics and how gymnasts tend to make naturally good fighters).

What examples do we have of gymnasts becoming good fighters?

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Its not that it lacks flow or certain techniques. Okinawan Karate is heavily in debt to southern chinese styles which are characterized by their simplistic direct short arm techniques and minimal kicking .The Naha- Te schools still heavily resemble them. Case in point.

Five Ancestor fist a style that is believed to have been a huge influence on karate



now compare it to Goju Ryu



Southern Mantis


compared to Uechi Ryu


Now white crane san Zhan form



vs the goju and uechi ryu Sanchin

 

[Hotora86]

In modern san shou rules you cannot strike from clinch, and you have to take down right away. You get no time to stay and work the clinch. If you cant take down right away you have to break out of body contact.

That's kinda crappy because it takes away an important aspect of the fight. But on the other hand, it develops a default clinch-throw sequence which can surprise many future opponents.

 

[spacetime]

I get that the karate forms are robotic but the good karate fighters definitely have a flow to them like machida, whittaker and wonderboy. What did you think the kung fu guy in the video? Didnt you practice shaolin kung fu like him?

But Machida would have been champion in most martial arts. He also won BJJ competitions, he'ss clearly a Shotokan outlier

 

[MadSquabbles500]

That's kinda crappy because it takes away an important aspect of the fight. But on the other hand, it develops a default clinch-throw sequence which can surprise many future opponents.

But they should still allow you to keep clinch and strike from it I think. It really does take a lot away. A lot of Kung Fu I see is mostly one hand graps, and the other strikes.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Its not that it lacks flow or certain techniques. Okinawan Karate is heavily in debt to southern chinese styles which are characterized by their simplistic direct short arm techniques and minimal kicking .The Naha- Te schools still heavily resemble them. Case in point.

Five Ancestor fist a style that is believed to have been a huge influence on karate



now compare it to Goju Ryu



Southern Mantis


compared to Uechi Ryu


Now white crane san Zhan form



vs the goju and uechi ryu Sanchin

A lot of those moves are not strikes, but push offs, shucks, or pulling the arm out.

 

[Hotora86]

But they should still allow you to keep clinch and strike from it I think. It really does take a lot away. A lot of Kung Fu I see is mostly one hand graps, and the other strikes.

... which made its way into Okinawan Karate in the form of hikite, though many people don't realize this.

 

[Azam]

Also something that I rarely see mentioned and that's applicable to this thread is Shuai jiao. It's one of the oldest martial arts styles in China - I think maybe the oldest.

It's very similar to judo & bokh (mongolian wrestling). It's greatly influenced the vast bulk of martial arts styles in China and has many techniques that you won't find in tkd/karate although you will recognize some of the throws/sweeps being similar to some you see in Karate.



I actually nearly had the opportunity to train in this style here in London - unfortunately the guy who brought it to the UK from China - no longer teaches which is a shame.

... which made its way into Okinawan Karate in the form of hikite, though many people don't realize this.

I think the biggest problem with Okinawan Karate & Karate in general is that most practitioners have zero knowledge or experience of grappling.

Many of the techniques you see in Karate are undoubtedly primarily for grappling purposes (uchi uke, mawashi uke, soto uke are one's that immediately come to mind).

I think we tend to forget that martial arts practitioners and early karateka didn't just study one style but often studied multiple arts - grappling, striking and weapons arts.

A lot has been lost in translation but I think a lot of these things can be learned/picked up again by learning from similarly related arts - after all there is a lot of cross contamination and similarities between styles in that region.

 

[rmongler]

The 'list of techniques' is a superficial way of looking at stylistic differences; in pretty much every style ever you are liable to find at least one example of pretty much every technique ever if you dig enough.

 

[Hotora86]

I think the biggest problem with Okinawan Karate & Karate in general is that most practitioners have zero knowledge or experience of grappling.

Many of the techniques you see in Karate are undoubtedly primarily for grappling purposes (uchi uke, mawashi uke, soto uke are one's that immediately come to mind).

I think we tend to forget that martial arts practitioners and early karateka didn't just study one style but often studied multiple arts - grappling, striking and weapons arts.

A lot has been lost in translation but I think a lot of these things can be learned/picked up again by learning from similarly related arts - after all there is a lot of cross contamination and similarities between styles in that region.

I wholeheartedly agree! And I do think that's what Iain Abernethy is doing - not necessarily digging up original move meanings from old texts but rather re-creating those meanings by sourcing solutions from other arts.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

The 'list of techniques' is a superficial way of looking at stylistic differences; in pretty much every style ever you are liable to find at least one example of pretty much every technique ever if you dig enough.

I realize that. Thats why I mentioned that most of the strikes cross over and many of the differences lie in footwork,strategy and movement.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Also something that I rarely see mentioned and that's applicable to this thread is Shuai jiao. It's one of the oldest martial arts styles in China - I think maybe the oldest.

It's very similar to judo & bokh (mongolian wrestling). It's greatly influenced the vast bulk of martial arts styles in China and has many techniques that you won't find in tkd/karate although you will recognize some of the throws/sweeps being similar to some you see in Karate.



I actually nearly had the opportunity to train in this style here in London - unfortunately the guy who brought it to the UK from China - no longer teaches which is a shame.
.

Did Shuai Jiao actually exist as a separate system by itself for a very long time, or was it just an aspect of the Lei Tai fighting? I heard they actually codified shuai jiao sometime after judo.

Also this is a really good channel to watch all the Shuai Jiao you can handle

 

[Azam]

Did Shuai Jiao actually exist as a separate system by itself for a very long time, or was it just an aspect of the Lei Tai fighting? I heard they actually codified shuai jiao sometime after judo.

Also this is a really good channel to watch all the Shuai Jiao you can handle

From what I read - it was originally a separate system that can be traced thousands of years back into China's history. It was originally different and was a style practised by the military.

At some point it got morphed into Lei Tai - more for entertainment/sport. The Shuai Jiao we know today was codified after judo - but it was already well in existence before judo was even developed by Kano. Before Judo it was a grappling style where matches took place on lei tai - I'm not exactly sure what the rules of those matches were but it definitely involved throwing.


I've had an interest in it for a while now because it's like Judo with the single/double legs & other leg based attacks included. What it doesn't really have though are submissions - but I've noticed that what they do have - that Judo doesn't - is that they practise counter throwing to punches/kicks. There seems to be more of a connect with how to apply throws when someone throws a punch or kick at you (than what I've experienced doing judo):



By that I mean your taught how to find opportunities to get the clinch in striking situations - from the little judo I've done that was never the case. You almost always had no problem getting a clinch - more a problem of securing a better grip.

 

[shinkyoku]

The 'list of techniques' is a superficial way of looking at stylistic differences; in pretty much every style ever you are liable to find at least one example of pretty much every technique ever if you dig enough.

agreed. the formal techniques listed in any styles grading syllabus are just the bare minimum of the basics. All styles contain a LOT more than the bare basics. Once you get past the basics, there is no end to stuff.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

From what I read - it was originally a separate system that can be traced thousands of years back into China's history. It was originally different and was a style practised by the military.

At some point it got morphed into Lei Tai - more for entertainment/sport. The Shuai Jiao we know today was codified after judo - but it was already well in existence before judo was even developed by Kano. Before Judo it was a grappling style where matches took place on lei tai - I'm not exactly sure what the rules of those matches were but it definitely involved throwing.


I've had an interest in it for a while now because it's like Judo with the single/double legs & other leg based attacks included. What it doesn't really have though are submissions - but I've noticed that what they do have - that Judo doesn't - is that they practise counter throwing to punches/kicks. There seems to be more of a connect with how to apply throws when someone throws a punch or kick at you (than what I've experienced doing judo):



By that I mean your taught how to find opportunities to get the clinch in striking situations - from the little judo I've done that was never the case. You almost always had no problem getting a clinch - more a problem of securing a better grip.

The thing I like about Shuai Jiao especially for self defense, is it does not have the stringent gripping rules of judo. You can grab belt all day, and stiff arm, you can cross grip all day, two on one russians. Much more offensive and defensive techniques you can use now. And theoretically you should be able to grip both hands on the back of his jacket, like a horse collar, and from there, your opponent cannot grab you at all. Yet, I have not seen it used in the limited matches I have seen on youtube.