Martinez vs Murray April 27

[RaidersJudah**]

didn't you hear from raidersjudah? PBF and Manny both ducked Paul Williams!!

Ha I love Pacquiao or Mayweather fanboys, they both ducked like crazy after Oscar, Pacquiao said he would fight anyone from 140 to 150 but he meant he'd fight any lightweight if they came to those weights.

 

[consortium11]

Ha I love Pacquiao or Mayweather fanboys, they both ducked like crazy after Oscar, Pacquiao said he would fight anyone from 140 to 150 but he meant he'd fight any lightweight if they came to those weights.

As anyone here can attest I'm not exactly Pac's biggest fan and I've always argued his was matched carefully (and sensibly) by his team... but let's actually look at his list of opponents post-Oscar.

Hatton
Cotto
Clottey
Margarito
Mosely
Marquez (x2)
Bradley

The only person one can really argue is a lightweight there is Marquez and it is otherwise basically a who's who of the 147lbs (and to an extent 140lbs) division.

Paul "I call myself the most avoided fighter while actually ducking Sergiy Dzinziruk and Deandre Latimore" Williams would have been in the conversation if not for the fact he got outboxed by the gatekeeper Quintana. Moreover it's a bit rich to talk about him being avoided at 147lbs when his biggest bout there (the narrow win over Margarito) came about because Margarito turned down a bout with Cotto to face him.

 

[RaidersJudah**]

As anyone here can attest I'm not exactly Pac's biggest fan and I've always argued his was matched carefully (and sensibly) by his team... but let's actually look at his list of opponents post-Oscar.

Hatton
Cotto
Clottey
Margarito
Mosely
Marquez (x2)
Bradley

The only person one can really argue is a lightweight there is Marquez and it is otherwise basically a who's who of the 147lbs (and to an extent 140lbs) division.

Paul "I call myself the most avoided fighter while actually ducking Sergiy Dzinziruk and Deandre Latimore" Williams would have been in the conversation if not for the fact he got outboxed by the gatekeeper Quintana. Moreover it's a bit rich to talk about him being avoided at 147lbs when his biggest bout there (the narrow win over Margarito) came about because Margarito turned down a bout with Cotto to face him.

Hatton was suicidal he had no fight left

Cotto was at 145 so it's sparring

Clottey was a good win

Margarito was at 150 for a made up belt after he was beaten and caught cheating

Mosley was shot and Canelo gets no credit for the very next fight against Mosley

Marquez is a lightweight, the idea that he is number 2 at welterweight is laughable and I really like Marquez but that's the truth

Bradley was a 140 pounder, who Pacquiao dragged up as always.

Mayweather's career is laughable since DLH, Williams was much more worthy than Ortiz who proved he was a quitter against Maidana or JMM who had no business at the weight than.


I remember thinking Mayweather wants nothing to do with that guy on only Margarito and Williams, regardless of who Williams turned down he tried to fight Cotto, Mayweather and Pacquiao and those fans have a million reasons why it didn't happen but all 3 have fought guys who didn't deserve to be there. The argument against Williams is pretty sick because Pacquiao fans claimed he was the welterweight king while a guy who could make the weight could beat him.

 

[The President]

Williams achieved what at least 90% of boxers don't. If that makes him terrible, what does it make the guys who he beat? Just because he looked rubbish and was a waste of talent doesn't mean he wasn't effective.

Seano, your letting your personal bias get in the way of your judgment here. Do you agree that Williams is a C/B level fighter? If not, why not? And if so, how can you then say he is a terrible fighter? Martin Murray is the same level, Macklin is the same level, Chavez is the same level, you wouldn't call those terrible fighters. Your only calling Williams terrible because of the way he fights, when it all comes down to it, you look at what the fighter has achieved.

And Williams was a freak of nature, his walking around weight wasn't as high as you would expect, he had a freakish metabolism. I can vouch for that too. I weighed 62kg for my first amateur contest and I was 6ft2. Some people are just built differently. It doesn't mean you should crucify them for it, I was comfortable at that weight so why not give my self every advantage and fight there?

Williams used to walk around at the same weight as the majority of Welterweights.

 

[consortium11]

Hatton was suicidal he had no fight left

And wasn't a lightweight

Cotto was at 145 so it's sparring

And wasn't a lightweight

Clottey was a good win

And wasn't a lightweight

Margarito was at 150 for a made up belt after he was beaten and caught cheating

And wasn't a lightweight

Mosley was shot and Canelo gets no credit for the very next fight against Mosley

And wasn't a lightweight

Marquez is a lightweight, the idea that he is number 2 at welterweight is laughable and I really like Marquez but that's the truth

Who was a lightweight (albeit his bouts prior to facing Pac at 147lbs were both at 140lbs).

Bradley was a 140 pounder, who Pacquiao dragged up as always.

And wasn't a lightweight.

Your arguement was... and I quote...

Pacquiao said he would fight anyone from 140 to 150 but he meant he'd fight any lightweight if they came to those weights.

And yet the only lightweight he faced was Marquez...

Mayweather's career is laughable since DLH, Williams was much more worthy than Ortiz who proved he was a quitter against Maidana or JMM who had no business at the weight than.

When Mayweather faced Ortiz and Marquez at 147lbs Williams was an established 160/154lbs boxer who by his own admission couldn't make 147lbs any more (the Cintron bout was meant to be at 147lbs but hastily renegotiate when it became clear Williams couldn't make the weight), the desperate attempts of him and his promoter to pretend this wasn't the case non-withstanding.

It's also worth noting that when Mayweather faced Ortiz Williams was coming off his knockout loss to Martinez and his robbery over Lara.

I remember thinking Mayweather wants nothing to do with that guy on only Margarito and Williams

The whole "Mayweather ducked Margarito" thing has to be put to bed sometime.

regardless of who Williams turned down he tried to fight Cotto, Mayweather and Pacquiao and those fans have a million reasons why it didn't happen but all 3 have fought guys who didn't deserve to be there.

Williams got paid a million bucks to face Andy Kolle, roughly the same to take on a shot Vince Phillips and yet more again to take on a shot Winky. He's in no position to complain about choice of opposition.

And once again he ducked Latimore and Dizi and had to be forced to face Lara.

 

[Seano]

Williams achieved what at least 90% of boxers don't. If that makes him terrible, what does it make the guys who he beat? Just because he looked rubbish and was a waste of talent doesn't mean he wasn't effective.

Seano, your letting your personal bias get in the way of your judgment here. Do you agree that Williams is a C/B level fighter? If not, why not? And if so, how can you then say he is a terrible fighter? Martin Murray is the same level, Macklin is the same level, Chavez is the same level, you wouldn't call those terrible fighters. Your only calling Williams terrible because of the way he fights, when it all comes down to it, you look at what the fighter has achieved.

And Williams was a freak of nature, his walking around weight wasn't as high as you would expect, he had a freakish metabolism. I can vouch for that too. I weighed 62kg for my first amateur contest and I was 6ft2. Some people are just built differently. It doesn't mean you should crucify them for it, I was comfortable at that weight so why not give my self every advantage and fight there?

Williams used to walk around at the same weight as the majority of Welterweights.

My personal bias is to blame because williams had terrible technique? Makes sesne.

My personal bias is to blame because he looked terrible when he fought guys who could punch?

My personal bias is to blame because he couldnt beat anyone after wright without the judges help?

Its not my fault he took scary beatings against martinez and lara. Its not my fault that he was falling all over himself against cintron. All of those things were the fault of paul williams and the fact that he had so little to offer when the size advantage decreased by 7 pounds.

I dont think he was a very good fighter. Sorry that offends you but the evidence is there. Nothing i've said is incorrect.

The fact is, williams was a big giant of a welter, who steamrolled over other welters basically by standing in front of them and overwhelming the smaller guy with workrate. He didn't outbox anyone. He stood there, doing literally nothing to avoid punches and flailed away. That worked against guys like mitchell, verno phillips, and wright because those guys couldn't punch.

I don't see how anyone can say he was a good boxer. He was nothing but size and workrate. I was never impressed with the guy, not one time. I honestly think he had the worst technique i've ever seen of any " top"pro and his results when he fought bigger guys support that idea. Numbers don't mean a whole lot to me. I watched what he did in the ring.

 

[The President]

My personal bias is to blame because williams had terrible technique? Makes sesne.

My personal bias is to blame because he looked terrible when he fought guys who could punch?

My personal bias is to blame because he couldnt beat anyone after wright without the judges help?

Its not my fault he took scary beatings against martinez and lara. Its not my fault that he was falling all over himself against cintron. All of those things were the fault of paul williams and the fact that he had so little to offer when the size advantage decreased by 7 pounds.

I dont think he was a very good fighter. Sorry that offends you but the evidence is there. Nothing i've said is incorrect.

The fact is, williams was a big giant of a welter, who steamrolled over other welters basically by standing in front of them and overwhelming the smaller guy with workrate. He didn't outbox anyone. He stood there, doing literally nothing to avoid punches and flailed away. That worked against guys like mitchell, verno phillips, and wright because those guys couldn't punch.

I don't see how anyone can say he was a good boxer. He was nothing but size and workrate. I was never impressed with the guy, not one time. I honestly think he had the worst technique i've ever seen of any " top"pro and his results when he fought bigger guys support that idea. Numbers don't mean a whole lot to me. I watched what he did in the ring.

You didn't answer the question, where do you rate his resume in terms of A,B,C,D? Everything you've said is pretty much irrelevant, we have all acknowledged that he doesn't look the best and a waste of talent, but a fighter doesn't need to be a great boxer to be succesful. This sport is about fighting just as much as it is about boxing.

We are not asking you to give your personal opinion on his style or tendencies, what we want to know is how you can think he is TERRIBLE when he accomplished a hell of a lot in the sport. If Williams is terrible, what about a guy like Sakio Bika?

You say workrate as if it's something that comes naturally. You have to work your fucking arse off to out punch someone for 12 rounds, Williams had awesome stamina, you can't knock him for that.

And in all honesty Seano, the evidence isn't there at all. You've stated nothing but your personal views on his style. We are talking about achievements in the sport. When it comes down to it, he achieved a hell of a lot for someone being as terrible as you say.

I never really liked Paul Williams and didn't rate him much but it does make me laugh when people talk about POUND FOR POUND rated guys as if they belong in the local gym. I guess some people just don't apperciate how hard it is to succeed in the sport.

 

[devante]

i think paul williams is a hell of a fighter, he can fight on a world class level; but he can't box to save his life, he is not a world class boxer.

his workrate, durability, conditioning and aggression are great and they are things that had been cultivated, developed to a point his whole strategy/gameplan was built around that; it was more than enough to beat superiorly skilled, but physically limited guys. When the ability level went up, the lack of skill caught up to him; he went to lean on his approach, physical frames, cardio, activity...and that wasn't enough for him to win or even really survive. When his physical/mental approach hit the wall, he had no technical layers to his game to lean on or turn to; which led to him to getting beat the f*ck up, and was made worse by his all out physical style which magnifies any and all beatings you take.

 

[Sunfish]

Paul Williams isn't terrible Seano. That's all people are saying. You can say whatever you want about potential, talent, style etc etc, he wasn't terrible.

 

[Old Cat]

This sport is about fighting just as much as it is about boxing.


You say workrate as if it's something that comes naturally. You have to work your fucking arse off to out punch someone for 12 rounds, Williams had awesome stamina, you can't knock him for that.


it does make me laugh when people talk about POUND FOR POUND rated guys as if they belong in the local gym. I guess some people just don't appreciate how hard it is to succeed in the sport.

Hear, hear...
To even survive on that "level" is an accomplishment, much less have the kind of success he had.

 

[Confucamus]

I liked watching Paul fight. Sure he wasn't technical and didnt utilize ALL of his physical gifts, but he was a dangerous fighter. Anybody who has a work rate and punch output like him will be hard for any fighter to beat. He may not have been GREAT, but he was definitely a really good fighter who was avoided.

 

[Seano]

You didn't answer the question, where do you rate his resume in terms of A,B,C,D? Everything you've said is pretty much irrelevant, we have all acknowledged that he doesn't look the best and a waste of talent, but a fighter doesn't need to be a great boxer to be succesful. This sport is about fighting just as much as it is about boxing.

We are not asking you to give your personal opinion on his style or tendencies, what we want to know is how you can think he is TERRIBLE when he accomplished a hell of a lot in the sport. If Williams is terrible, what about a guy like Sakio Bika?

You say workrate as if it's something that comes naturally. You have to work your fucking arse off to out punch someone for 12 rounds, Williams had awesome stamina, you can't knock him for that.

And in all honesty Seano, the evidence isn't there at all. You've stated nothing but your personal views on his style. We are talking about achievements in the sport. When it comes down to it, he achieved a hell of a lot for someone being as terrible as you say.

I never really liked Paul Williams and didn't rate him much but it does make me laugh when people talk about POUND FOR POUND rated guys as if they belong in the local gym. I guess some people just don't apperciate how hard it is to succeed in the sport.

This is ridiculous. I need to give him a letter grade now? I don't rate his resume that highly. C- or D. Without the takedown i think he lost to cintron and probably lost 3 of the 4 rounds in that fight. I can't credit him for a bogus decision against lara and he got splattered by martinez. He got schooled by quintana in the first fight so he was 1-1 with quintana. I think of his 40 plus fights, he has what, 2 quality wins?

You guys are overrating him. His resume was about = to canelos before he fought trout.probably worse considering his poor showings in his last 5 fights.

You can base it on a ranking if you want, look at his record and add up some numbers. But that doesn't change what he was in the ring. A guy who was almost totally dependent on a size advantage who literally couldn't block punches. That description doesn't sound like a great fighter to me.

 

[RaidersJudah**]

The argument seems to be Paul isn't a ATG, but no one claims he is but this whole he was to big for 147 is crap even when at 154 he said he could make 147, now my whole life I've heard if you can make the weight it's your division, Manny said he was the 147 king but go look at the Pactard sites, Pacquiao's fans feared Williams cause they know what I know.

 

[The Batkilt]

Why does Williams get shit for making 147 and Hearns doesn't? The fact Hearns used his reach and size advantage when he wanted should surely garner more criticism from those that criticise Williams?

 

[RaidersJudah**]

Why does Williams get shit for making 147 and Hearns doesn't? The fact Hearns used his reach and size advantage when he wanted should surely garner more criticism from those that criticise Williams?

Cotto, Mayweather and Pacquiao fans talking down for a duck, I remember Pacquiao fans called Williams a bully for saying he wanted a fight but the same fans claim Manny was the 154 pound champ

 

[WatchMeDoMe**]

Why does Williams get shit for making 147 and Hearns doesn't? The fact Hearns used his reach and size advantage when he wanted should surely garner more criticism from those that criticise Williams?

Cuz Hearns actually had other talents that contributed to his success, unlike Williams, whos only real skill, besides fairly good volume punching, was weight cutting.

 

[Seano]

Why does Williams get shit for making 147 and Hearns doesn't? The fact Hearns used his reach and size advantage when he wanted should surely garner more criticism from those that criticise Williams?

Comparing Williams to Hearns is a joke.

 

[The Batkilt]

Comparing Williams to Hearns is a joke.

Try reading my posts in this thread about the comparison before making that comment. I'm not comparing their styles. I've already said I thought it was a daft comparison as their height - and Williams trying to emulate Tommy at times - are all they had in common.

But if anyone is going to criticise Williams for cutting to 147 then they can't say it was OK for Tommy to do it just because he was a far better fighter. Especially when Hearns actually used the size advantages he had at the weight.

And because some simpletons - not aiming this at you - still won't get it, here goes:

If Williams bad man for being tall and cutting to 147, Hearns bad man for being tall and cutting to 147 too.

 

[RaidersJudah**]

Comparing Williams to Hearns is a joke.

Yeah he didn't compare talent, I thought it was interesting that no one makes fun of Montiel fighting guys that he says aren't big enough for him.

 

[Seano]