Kobe Bryant vs Hakeem Olajuwon

I'm deliberately putting my response to the second part to avoid a wall-o-text since it is more historically fastidious:

Is there some reason you're forgetting that Anthony Davis exists? I thought you were restricting yourself to "Rising Star" centers or thereabouts, but you keep talking about Cousins, so that hardly makes sense.

Make it 42 years to cover the modern era. First, you're wrong. We're talking classic bigs, not just centers, so guys like Tim Duncan needs to be added to that list. Okay, let's dig in.

I see Anthony Davis and Tim Duncan more as power forwards and part time centers. But ok, include Anthony Davis as it strengthens my argument.

Since we went back to the ABA-NBA merger, our first championship is headed by PF/C Bill Walton's Trailblazers. The very next year? 6'9" PF/C Elvin Haryes and his Bullets. Who unseated them in the Finals the following year? Center Jack Sikma's Sonics. See a pattern?

Hayes was a power forward and Sikma was not a dominate center and was part of a well balanced team.

Meanwhile, while they needed guards, if you look at these "small" guys who disrupted this, and dominated as alphas in the 80's, that would be the 6'9" Magic/Larry, and they always had league-dominating classic bigs as their main sidekicks (Old-KAJ/Parrish/McHale). KAJ was still in full alpha mode when 1980 took off, the year after Sikma's crown, with rookie Magic aboard, to collect their first ring together. In Magic's case, he depended on this "sidekick", the greatest center in history, to produce the majority of his team's scoring up until 1986-87. Thought a Kobe nuthugger might find that interesting.

Who is calling KAJ a sidekick? Mchale is not a center and Parish, although a great player and integral piece, didn't lead the team and could have never led a team to a title.

The Bad Boys were a team dynamic. Thomas was the Captain, no doubt, but Laimbeer was a defensive specialist and enforcer who both scored and rebounded better than Gobert, for example, while Rodman was the greatest rebounder in history. Still, we'll give that to smalls: Thomas/Dumars.

You're spending a lot of time talking about forwards and role players.

That brings us to the 90's which outside of Jordan were dominated by classic big men: Olajuwon & Robinson (Ewing/Shaq were Jordan's punching bags). Jordan was the earthquake who inspired all this to change. He was the only guard-- Chicago the only dynasty-- in modern NBA history prior to the rise of Downtown Moneyball that didn't need a truly great big man to reign.

There has only been 3 dynasties since the 80s lol. One was led by a SG, another by a C/SG combo, and the other by a PF/great team/great coach/great organization combo.

Nevertheless, Shaq & Duncan succeeded him in owning the league. During their reign, Detroit squeezed in another defense-centered team concept championship, but this time with their defensive MVP being their center, in Ben Wallace, not a guard like Dumars, and he was as small as classic big men come. Miami also squeezed in an outlier behind Wade-- perhaps the only guy besides Jordan to do it without a great big even if only once.

Ben Wallace was a utility player tho...he's not leading you to a title. Detroit was another well balanced team.

Boston got theirs, but while most perceive Paul Pierce as the leader of that team, Garnett was easily the greater player, and unsurprisingly the one who produced both more Win Shares and a higher VORP in their championship season. Pierce got all the attention because he was a crunchtime scorer.

Finally we arrive at alpha Kobe, but Kobe needed Hall-of-Fame lock Pau Gasol to win his back-to-backs. That was the end of the dominant big man.

Garnett and Gasol are again, power forwards. When going over the history of centers who won titles you have mentioned and included 7 power forwards and several role players/supporting cast members.

So I repeat my original assertion. In the past 40 yrs only 4 centers have led, or co-led, their teams to titles(5 if you include Unseld which is fair). And only 3 have led their teams to multiple titles.

Last decade saw a fading Oneal, Ming, Howard, Gasol(prior to his Laker years), Ben Wallace as the premier big men. All quality players but we have bigger pool of quality centers in this era. The 4 dominate centers of this era(Towns, Embiid, Cousins, Davis*) have the skill sets and potential to put up numbers and lead teams to titles. Haven't been this many since the 90s.
 
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Last decade/earlier this decade we had Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Gasol, Bosh, Ben Wallace, Rasheed and several other bigs who made impacts on championship teams. Their roles are obviously changing, but the presence of quality big men has never just stopped.

You named 3 centers out of that group
 
You named 3 centers out of that group
People can call Garnett, Duncan, Pau Gasol etc 4s if they want to. They were their team's big men. People started labeling bigs that could move and shoot at all as PFs and we're supposed to pretend that means good Centers don't exist anymore. Whatever.

Oh and I forgot Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler and some other defensive stalwarts.
 
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People can call Garnett, Duncan, Pau Gasol etc 4s if they want to. They were their team's big men. People started labeling bigs that could move and shoot at all as PFs and we're supposed to pretend that means good Centers don't exist anymore. Whatever.

Oh and I forgot Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler and some other defensive stalwarts.

Well yes if you consider power forward position to be the center position then I would agree that we have not experienced a drop off. But the fact is that there were actual players occupying the center position alongside the dominant PFs of the time.

Last decade saw a drastic drop off at the Center position but it was the golden era of Power Forwards. Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, Webber, Rasheed, Gasol, Bosh, Randolph, Stoudemire, Brand, Oneal, Martin.
 
Kobe didn't have to have the league's best player go to minor league baseball in order to get his chips.
 
Kobe didn't have to have the league's best player go to minor league baseball in order to get his chips.
Rockets have a winning record vs the bulls in 90s
Even jordan admits he wouldnt beat Dream in the FINALS.
Nice try...
 
2002-nba-finalse-games-2-4-uin-the-4th-quarter-3848665.png
How many mvps and finals mvp did shaq get vs kobe during that? Lol milenials are cute with their memes.
 
Didn't need to make a thread on this rofl. The GOAT is so far ahead of Dream that you must be dreaming to even make the comparison. Better on offense and defense, better winner, far more techincally skilled/gifted. It's not close on any level.
 
Positions are a tough comparison to begin with. Becomes a skill debate or a boring stats...thing.

Hakeem didn't have good teams when he won. Had a better team when Sampson was around. You could argue Bob was the 2nd best player. Got Hakeem at #2 on my list since he and Mike are the only 2 who could dominate the playoffs on their own, on both ends, with teams that weren't that good (pre-Rodman).
 
Kobe didn't have to have the league's best player go to minor league baseball in order to get his chips.

Put the best version of Kobe ever on that 93-94 Rockets team in lieu of Hakeem, and the Rockets are an 8 seed, and exit in the first round.
 
Rockets have a winning record vs the bulls in 90s
Even jordan admits he wouldnt beat Dream in the FINALS.
Nice try...

I don't doubt MJ said this, but still skeptical. Hakeem would've been unstoppable, even with Rodman. But I doubt it'd be enough to offset MJ, Pippen, and to lesser extent, Kukoc.
 

Kobe's numbers also got a bump from p,along with Shaq. When an entire defense has to collapse on someone because they are physically dominant to every other player in the league, it creates openings for wingmen like Kobe. Not that Shaq didn't also benefit from Kobe drawing defenders, just not anywhere near to same degree IMO.
 
Didn't need to make a thread on this rofl. The GOAT is so far ahead of Dream that you must be dreaming to even make the comparison. Better on offense and defense, better winner, far more techincally skilled/gifted. It's not close on any level.

<Kobe213>
 
Kobe's numbers also got a bump from p,along with Shaq. When an entire defense has to collapse on someone because they are physically dominant to every other player in the league, it creates openings for wingmen like Kobe. Not that Shaq didn't also benefit from Kobe drawing defenders, just not anywhere near to same degree IMO.

Kobe put up those same numbers without Shaq. In fact playing with Shaq suppressed his numbers.
 
Kobe's numbers also got a bump from p,along with Shaq. When an entire defense has to collapse on someone because they are physically dominant to every other player in the league, it creates openings for wingmen like Kobe. Not that Shaq didn't also benefit from Kobe drawing defenders, just not anywhere near to same degree IMO.

If anything Snaq's fatass clogging the lane was a detriment to True's scoring ability. This is CLEARLY evinced by his PPG numbers pre and post-fatass.

Your main weakness here is that you don't know anything about the game so you spout off faux truisms like "when the defense collapses it creates openings for wingmen". This is a laughable analysis that falls apart on itself when you actually analyze the situation as it was.
 
Kobe put up those same numbers without Shaq. In fact playing with Shaq suppressed his numbers.
Good point. I'll still contend that Shaq/Phil created an ideal environment for Kobe to develop as a player in, and during that time, Kobe play benefited more from being with Shaq than vice versa(again not saying Shaq didn't also benefit).
 
If anything Snaq's fatass clogging the lane was a detriment to True's scoring ability. This is CLEARLY evinced by his PPG numbers pre and post-fatass.

Your main weakness here is that you don't know anything about the game so you spout off faux truisms like "when the defense collapses it creates openings for wingmen". This is a laughable analysis that falls apart on itself when you actually analyze the situation as it was.

Your analysis, as always, is top notch. On a side note, I wasn't aware Kobe had "pre- fatass" days in the NBA.
 
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