Kobe Bryant vs Hakeem Olajuwon

You said that Kobe's 3 rings with Shaq are equivalent to Hakeem making it to the second round lol. You were trying to devalue Kobe's rings.

I'm saying Hakeem getting to second round with the teams he did, is roughly the equivalent to Kobe winning with the teams he did. Interpret it how you want to. Hakeem simply had more barriers to the Finals than Kobe did, and as such, the times he was able to make playoff runs with less-than-stellar casts should earn points in his resume, if we're going to count Kobe winning titles with the league MVP on his team.
 
This is how the ATG's titles breakdown:

Kareem: 5 partnerships, 1 sole proprietorship

Russell: 11 corporations(majority stakeholder)

Wilt: 1 sole proprietorship, 1 partnership

West: 1 partnership

Erving: 1 partnership

Malone: 1 partnership

Magic: 5 partnerships

Bird: 3 sole proprietorships

Jordan: 6 Sole proprietorships

Hakeem: 2 Sole proprietorships

Shaq: 4 partnerships

Duncan: 2 sole proprietorships, 3 corporations(2 maj. stakeholder, 1 min. stakeholder)

Kobe: 2 Sole proprietorships, 3 partnerships

Dirk: 1 sole proprietorship

DWade: 1 partnership, 2 corporations(min. stakeholder)

Lebron: 2 corporations(maj. stakeholder), 1 sole proprietorship

Curry: 1 sole proprietorship, 1 partnership

Durant: 1 partnership

When put into context Kobe's rings get even stronger. The only people with more solo rings than Kobe are Jordan and Bird(and Mikan I suppose). Magic never got any solo rings. Wilt, Kareem, and Lebron only got one. Oscar, Dr. J, Moses...none of them got any.
 
I'm saying Hakeem getting to second round with the teams he did, is roughly the equivalent to Kobe winning with the teams he did. Interpret it how you want to. Hakeem simply had a more barriers to the Finals than Kobe did, and as such, the times he was able to make playoff runs with less-than-stellar casts should earn points in his resume, if we're going to count Kobe winning titles with the league MVP on his team.

I agree that Hakeem earns points for strength of schedule but to compare getting out of the first round to championship rings is ridiculous. Especially considering the teams Kobe and Shaq had to get through. Blazers(59 wins), Spurs(champions), Kings(#1 seed). Do you compare Magic or Kareems rings to Hakeem getting out of the first round as well?

Also, when considering strength of schedule Kobe earns major points as well. Fun fact. Kobe has beaten more 50 win teams in the playoffs than anybody.
 
I agree that Hakeem earns points for strength of schedule but to compare getting out of the first round to championship rings is ridiculous. Especially considering the teams Kobe and Shaq had to get through. Blazers(59 wins), Spurs(champions), Kings(#1 seed). Do you compare Magic or Kareems rings to Hakeem getting out of the first round as well?

Also, when considering strength of schedule Kobe earns major points as well. Fun fact. Kobe has beaten more 50 win teams in the playoffs than anybody.
I said "2nd Rd". That is usually what separates teams that are just good, to actual contenders.

And Kobe didn't beat 50 win teams did; the Lakers did. Talking semantics here; but the point remains no one does it alone.
 
I blame Nephilim.

Kobe in his true form...
 
I miss the days when there was some semblance of balancing the talent in the league. Yes, the Bulls probably fir the definition of "superteam", but in any given year(particularly when MJ wasnt there), it felt like there were 6-8 legit teams, that came about organically, that you couldnt sleep on.

I will take that era of basketball over this contemporary era 9/10. Those playoff battles in the west were good back then, you would get them right out of the gate in round 1
 
I will take that era of basketball over this contemporary era 9/10. Those playoff battles in the west were good back then, you would get them right out of the gate in round 1

It was more physical. Not eveybody just played shooting guard. There were more viable contenders. Alphas didn't leave their team every other year to start a new superteam. And when super teams did come about, it was organically, and you felt like you were witnessing something special. It was just the better era in basketball.
 
Kobe had better career than Hakeem on accolades accomplishment wise. Hakeem was the better player of the two but Kobe ranks higher his career was better.
 
I love the dream, definitely top 10 to me.

I have to admit though, that his championships are a bit tarnished being won in the Jordan baseball years.

I also think if the dream played today he would win 10 championships in a row. That is how bad the center position has become.
 
I think it's stupid to try to compare the two considering the difference in position. Especially because the era Kobe played in came after the point guard/center driven league.
 
I love the dream, definitely top 10 to me.

I have to admit though, that his championships are a bit tarnished being won in the Jordan baseball years.

I also think if the dream played today he would win 10 championships in a row. That is how bad the center position has become.
In retrospect, the dominant big man died with Shaq. Every era before about 2005 had a handful of high-level players who specialized playing in the paint...Shaq, Alonzo, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Parish, Walton, M Malone, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Mikan, etc. The only major exception I can think of atm is Duncan, who was basically a throwback playing in the modern era.
 
In retrospect, the dominant big man died with Shaq. Every era before about 2005 had a handful of high-level players who specialized playing in the paint...Shaq, Alonzo, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Parish, Walton, M Malone, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Mikan, etc. The only major exception I can think of atm is Duncan, who was basically a throwback playing in the modern era.

The big man is coming back tho. They are not as completely paint oriented but theyre good. Towns, Embiid, Jordan, Whiteside, Cousins, Drummond, Nurkic, Jokic, Gobert, ect.
 
The big man is coming back tho. They are not as completely paint oriented but theyre good. Towns, Embiid, Jordan, Whiteside, Cousins, Drummond, Nurkic, Jokic, Gobert, ect.
LOL, what the fuck are you talking about?

Stat padders don't win games. Boogie is born to lose in today's NBA, and it's all he's ever done. The Pelicans quickly discovered that they're better without him. He's destined to shine on All-Star weekend, and nowhere else.

Meanwhile, even I couldn't object to Beri's stream-of-diarrhea when he waxed condescending about the new-look Pistons. Their chemistry lasted for five games before the realization that building a team around twin towers without sufficient support shooting just doesn't work anymore. Drummond making a comeback for bigs by missing the playoffs in the East?

Hassan Whiteside-- same deal. Just got destroyed while Shaq clowned on his hustle. First round nobody.

Deandre is one of the great role players as a big, but he's a pure finisher/rebounder, and not someone who can lead a team or create shots: not even his own. He's one that I could see more likely to have playoff success, and yet he hasn't despite having probably more talent behind him in the past decade than anyone else-- and the right kind-- besides Scott Brooks, Steve Kerr, or Lebron (see what I did there, Spoelstra, you bitch?).

Jokic. Congratulations. You have the scoring title for white players this year. That's the most significant thing you'll ever achieve.

Gobert? Solid team player, can win, but please, nobody scoring under 15ppg is bringing the dominant back-to-the-basket game of yore back.

Nurkic? This one doesn't even deserve an insult.


The truth is that even if you aren't a great outside shooter, the way the rules and offenses have changed, the new paradigm are guys like Giannis who is more in the vein of Lebron than he is Duncan/Robinson: just a supersized version with vastly inferior vision/passing talent, but three additional inches.

Embiid & Towns are it. We'll see if the rings come. I'm not optimistic. The back-to-the-basket postgame I so dearly loved, and the exquisite inside-out interior passing that came with it, has been obviated.
 
LOL, what the fuck are you talking about?

Stat padders don't win games. Boogie is born to lose in today's NBA, and it's all he's ever done. The Pelicans quickly discovered that they're better without him. He's destined to shine on All-Star weekend, and nowhere else.

Meanwhile, even I couldn't object to Beri's stream-of-diarrhea when he waxed condescending about the new-look Pistons. Their chemistry lasted for five games before the realization that building a team around twin towers without sufficient support shooting just doesn't work anymore. Drummond making a comeback for bigs by missing the playoffs in the East?

Hassan Whiteside-- same deal. Just got destroyed while Shaq clowned on his hustle. First round nobody.

Deandre is one of the great role players as a big, but he's a pure finisher/rebounder, and not someone who can lead a team or create shots: not even his own. He's one that I could see more likely to have playoff success, and yet he hasn't despite having probably more talent behind him in the past decade than anyone else-- and the right kind-- besides Scott Brooks, Steve Kerr, or Lebron (see what I did there, Spoelstra, you bitch?).

Jokic. Congratulations. You have the scoring title for white players this year. That's the most significant thing you'll ever achieve.

Gobert? Solid team player, can win, but please, nobody scoring under 15ppg is bringing the dominant back-to-the-basket game of yore back.

Nurkic? This one doesn't even deserve an insult.


The truth is that even if you aren't a great outside shooter, the way the rules and offenses have changed, the new paradigm are guys like Giannis who is more in the vein of Lebron than he is Duncan/Robinson: just a supersized version with vastly inferior vision/passing talent, but three additional inches.

Embiid & Towns are it. We'll see if the rings come. I'm not optimistic. The back-to-the-basket postgame I so dearly loved, and the exquisite inside-out interior passing that came with it, has been obviated.

I'm not trying to insinuate that big men are going to dominate the league or change the style of play back to a center oriented style of play. I'm just saying there is a nice collection of bigs in the league today.

You go through and nit pick every one and dismiss them if they aren't dominating the league. You admonish Jordan, Drummond, Gobert, ect for their specialized skill sets and not being able to carry a team to a title by themselves. They are no different then Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo in that regard. Cousins hasn't won yet but he's dominated his competition....kind of like Patrick Ewing and David Robinson.

The only centers to lead to their teams to multiple titles in the past 40 years are Shaq, Hakeem, and Kareem. Both Shaq and Kareem needed top 10 all time great guards to do it. And Hakeem had a top 5 shooting guard of all time for his second title. Outside of those 3 the only other center to lead his team to a title was Moses Malone...who also had an all time great teammate and borderline superteam supporting him.

The fact is there have only been a handful of centers to actual lead their teams to multiple titles. So to hold this current crop of bigs to an unrealistic standard not even the bigs of yesteryear reached is a bit unfair.

Towns, Embiid, and Cousins are the only 5 star...mvp caliber centers in the league. However, the league is filled with capable centers with valuable specialized skills sets. Considering how bad the 2000s was in terms of centers this decade has been a massive improvement.
 
I'm not trying to insinuate that big men are going to dominate the league or change the style of play back to a center oriented style of play. I'm just saying there is a nice collection of bigs in the league today.
There's always a nice collection of bigs. That doesn't change. Some generations are greater than others, but the key change has been that they are no longer the centerpiece of successful basketball.
You go through and nit pick every one and dismiss them if they aren't dominating the league. You admonish Jordan, Drummond, Gobert, ect for their specialized skill sets and not being able to carry a team to a title by themselves. They are no different then Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo in that regard. Cousins hasn't won yet but he's dominated his competition....kind of like Patrick Ewing and David Robinson.
Your argument has already Hindenburg'd, so I'm going to stop you here. Did you seriously just analogize Gobert to Mutombo, and Jordan to Zo?

Jordan cannot create his own shots. He is a pure off-ball finisher who secures rebounds, and provides a strong interior defensive presence; not as strong as Gobert, but that doesn't matter half as much as it did 20 years ago when people were actually winning championships at the rim. A direct consequence? Less relevance. That's why Mutombo peaked with 4.5 blocks a game one season while Gobert has never been north of 2.6. Another simple truth being reflected is that Gobert is simply outclassed by Mutombo despite that he's in the running for DPOY these days. Defense just matters less, now. This explains why Gobert's defensive rating (the # of points allowed per 100 possessions) has never gone below 99 while a prime Mutombo notched 92. Massive.

Meanwhile, Zo averaged over 20ppg across the combined first 8 seasons of his career. Jordan's career average is still under 10ppg. GTFO with that garbage comparison.

Finally, Cousins is someone who has "dominated" his competition no differently than the Admiral and Ewing did? TCK, you ignorant wombat, Cousins has been in the league for 7 years and has never played a single game in the postseason. If there was a hot dog bun large enough to house the dong you just shoved down your own throat with that comment it could double as a parachute for Operation Dumbo Drop Part Deux.
 
I'm deliberately putting my response to the second part to avoid a wall-o-text since it is more historically fastidious:
The only centers to lead to their teams to multiple titles in the past 40 years are Shaq, Hakeem, and Kareem. Both Shaq and Kareem needed top 10 all time great guards to do it. And Hakeem had a top 5 shooting guard of all time for his second title. Outside of those 3 the only other center to lead his team to a title was Moses Malone...who also had an all time great teammate and borderline superteam supporting him.

The fact is there have only been a handful of centers to actual lead their teams to multiple titles. So to hold this current crop of bigs to an unrealistic standard not even the bigs of yesteryear reached is a bit unfair.

Towns, Embiid, and Cousins are the only 5 star...mvp caliber centers in the league. However, the league is filled with capable centers with valuable specialized skills sets. Considering how bad the 2000s was in terms of centers this decade has been a massive improvement.
Is there some reason you're forgetting that Anthony Davis exists? I thought you were restricting yourself to "Rising Star" centers or thereabouts, but you keep talking about Cousins, so that hardly makes sense.

Make it 42 years to cover the modern era. First, you're wrong. We're talking classic bigs, not just centers, so guys like Tim Duncan needs to be added to that list. Okay, let's dig in.

Since we went back to the ABA-NBA merger, our first championship is headed by PF/C Bill Walton's Trailblazers. The very next year? 6'9" PF/C Elvin Haryes and his Bullets. Who unseated them in the Finals the following year? Center Jack Sikma's Sonics. See a pattern?

Meanwhile, while they needed guards, if you look at these "small" guys who disrupted this, and dominated as alphas in the 80's, that would be the 6'9" Magic/Larry, and they always had league-dominating classic bigs as their main sidekicks (Old-KAJ/Parrish/McHale). KAJ was still in full alpha mode when 1980 took off, the year after Sikma's crown, with rookie Magic aboard, to collect their first ring together. In Magic's case, he depended on this "sidekick", the greatest center in history, to produce the majority of his team's scoring up until 1986-87. Thought a Kobe nuthugger might find that interesting.

The Bad Boys were a team dynamic. Thomas was the Captain, no doubt, but Laimbeer was a defensive specialist and enforcer who both scored and rebounded better than Gobert, for example, while Rodman was the greatest rebounder in history. Still, we'll give that to smalls: Thomas/Dumars.

That brings us to the 90's which outside of Jordan were dominated by classic big men: Olajuwon & Robinson (Ewing/Shaq were Jordan's punching bags). Jordan was the earthquake who inspired all this to change. He was the only guard-- Chicago the only dynasty-- in modern NBA history prior to the rise of Downtown Moneyball that didn't need a truly great big man to reign.

Nevertheless, Shaq & Duncan succeeded him in owning the league. During their reign, Detroit squeezed in another defense-centered team concept championship, but this time with their defensive MVP being their center, in Ben Wallace, not a guard like Dumars, and he was as small as classic big men come. Miami also squeezed in an outlier behind Wade-- perhaps the only guy besides Jordan to do it without a great big even if only once.

Boston got theirs, but while most perceive Paul Pierce as the leader of that team, Garnett was easily the greater player, and unsurprisingly the one who produced both more Win Shares and a higher VORP in their championship season. Pierce got all the attention because he was a crunchtime scorer.

Finally we arrive at alpha Kobe, but Kobe needed Hall-of-Fame lock Pau Gasol to win his back-to-backs. That was the end of the dominant big man.


Is anyone fretting for Golden State, Houston, Toronto, or Cleveland today because they don't have a great big man? Everything rides on Unibrow.
 
How are you guys arguing over the future of big men and not even mentioning Davis? Are we pretending he plays a different position than Embiid and KAT?

Edit: Ok, finally got to the brow after the 3rd or 4th novel. Lol.
 
There's always a nice collection of bigs. That doesn't change. Some generations are greater than others, but the key change has been that they are no longer the centerpiece of successful basketball.

Not true. Last decade saw a massive drop off.

Your argument has already Hindenburg'd, so I'm going to stop you here. Did you seriously just analogize Gobert to Mutombo, and Jordan to Zo?

Jordan cannot create his own shots. He is a pure off-ball finisher who secures rebounds, and provides a strong interior defensive presence; not as strong as Gobert, but that doesn't matter half as much as it did 20 years ago when people were actually winning championships at the rim. A direct consequence? Less relevance. That's why Mutombo peaked with 4.5 blocks a game one season while Gobert has never been north of 2.6. Another simple truth being reflected is that Gobert is simply outclassed by Mutombo despite that he's in the running for DPOY these days. Defense just matters less, now. This explains why Gobert's defensive rating (the # of points allowed per 100 possessions) has never gone below 99 while a prime Mutombo notched 92. Massive.

Points allowed is a team stat. When it comes to defensive win shares, overall win shares, per, and traditional stats these guys are all comparable to Mutombo and Zo(at least defensively).

Finally, Cousins is someone who has "dominated" his competition no differently than the Admiral and Ewing did? TCK, you ignorant wombat, Cousins has been in the league for 7 years and has never played a single game in the postseason. If there was a hot dog bun large enough to house the dong you just shoved down your own throat with that comment it could double as a parachute for Operation Dumbo Drop Part Deux.

Who played in your butt as a kid to make you so vitriolic about even the most mundane of subjects?

Anyway, Cousins never had a good team around him until this year in which he was headed to the post season before injury. 25/13/5 this year...domination.
 
Last decade/earlier this decade we had Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Gasol, Bosh, Ben Wallace, Rasheed and several other bigs who made impacts on championship teams. Their roles are obviously changing, but the presence of quality big men has never just stopped.
 
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