Karate throws

[Big Nasty Edison]

Maybe your experience is different, but I spend more time learning how to escape bad positions in competition focus classes than in self defense classes. This is because there is a heavy sparring focus in competition class, so one has to be good at defense in order to avoid being beaten up by bigger or more skilled people.

The self defense classes however tend not to place people in those uncomfortable situations.

I've similarly spent more time learning head movement and defensive footwork in kickboxing class than in arts that don't have a sport ruleset.

Also if you watch combat sports it more common for skilled competitors to try not to lose or be super defensive than to be overaggressive. I'm thinking boxing in particular here.

I think you and he are talking about different "escape" philosophy. You are talking how to "escape" from a tactically inferior position in the hierarchy of positional control during a grappling exchange. Hotora seems to be talking about literally escaping the situation at the outset and running away, no longer engaging in the fight at all.

 

[CFGroup]

More oil:

Not sure why he's demoing that technique as practical.

Trying to bend a resisting opponents elbow to execute the Shihonage throw is going to be next to impossible.

Plus he stays on Uke's center line just waiting to eat a left hand or foot.

Even as a demo, 2 hands on one I would always move away from the second hand and also pull Uke to the outside to break the balance and practice sound Kuzushi principles.

It's a great technique, but one to do for complex mechanics training, not for "holy shit I'm going to get my head caved in" practical settings.

The Goshin Judo way I learned is also to trap the inside leg and turn away farther to the outside and then drop your center so you throw Uke over your hip...Uke has to break fall or break his elbow shoulder or trapped knee...Nether of those guys(and me till next year) have the conditioning to breakfall so it is only a ceremonial throw.

I know it's not resisting, but sound defensive tactical body positioning should be practiced IMHO.

 

[Hotora86]

I think you and he are talking about different "escape" philosophy. You are talking how to "escape" from a tactically inferior position in the hierarchy of positional control during a grappling exchange. Hotora seems to be talking about literally escaping the situation at the outset and running away, no longer engaging in the fight at all.

Correct!

 

[Hotora86]

This time we got neck cranks! Crank it up!

 

[Thycidides]

The first bit with the collar tie and elbows looks ok, but a lot of that move sequence looks to be superfluous with too many moving parts. I'm not sure he has enough control of the neck for a lot of it, it would work better if he was closer to his partner like you see a lot in the Mauy Thai clinch or the standing rnc bjj does. The problem is though that neck cranks/ neck control are actually quite unpleasant so I imagine the technique is done like that on purpose so ones' partner doesn't get a sore neck the next day.


The more of these videos I watch I get the impression the intended market is for people that like martial arts but don't want sparring and get kind of bored drilling simple moves over and over.

maybe I'm wrong and Abernathy's students do some sort of sparring every session but I haven't seen it in any videos posted to sherdog, videos of students sparring in the gym that is.

If they actually do some sort of light, pseudo mma sparring that would be really cool and id totally go train there.

 

[Hotora86]

The first bit with the collar tie and elbows looks ok, but a lot of that move sequence looks to be superfluous with too many moving parts. I'm not sure he has enough control of the neck for a lot of it, it would work better if he was closer to his partner like you see a lot in the Mauy Thai clinch or the standing rnc bjj does. The problem is though that neck cranks/ neck control are actually quite unpleasant so I imagine the technique is done like that on purpose so ones' partner doesn't get a sore neck the next day.


The more of these videos I watch I get the impression the intended market is for people that like martial arts but don't want sparring and get kind of bored drilling simple moves over and over.

maybe I'm wrong and Abernathy's students do some sort of sparring every session but I haven't seen it in any videos posted to sherdog, videos of students sparring in the gym that is.

If they actually do some sort of light, pseudo mma sparring that would be really cool and id totally go train there.

What he does Abernethy calls Kata Based Sparring (KBS) and he builds his whole class around that - takes parts of kata which flow nicely and makes them into a drill.

I don't think he does any MMA-style sparring. He has a long-ass post about "sparring for the streets" if you have time:
https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-1-iain-abernethy

I get what you mean tho and agree to an extent - drilling is one thing, sparring is another and it's best to have both. But if choosing between your run-of-the-mill standard kihon-kata-bunkai and Abernethy's KBS I would definitely prefer KBS.

I've never trained with Iain myself but I do enjoy his videos very much as they deal more with principles that techniques (as in: move the head and the body follows etc).

 

[Thycidides]

What he does Abernethy calls Kata Based Sparring (KBS) and he builds his whole class around that - takes parts of kata which flow nicely and makes them into a drill.

I don't think he does any MMA-style sparring. He has a long-ass post about "sparring for the streets" if you have time:
https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-1-iain-abernethy

I get what you mean tho and agree to an extent - drilling is one thing, sparring is another and it's best to have both. But if choosing between your run-of-the-mill standard kihon-kata-bunkai and Abernethy's KBS I would definitely prefer KBS.

I've never trained with Iain myself but I do enjoy his videos very much as they deal more with principles that techniques (as in: move the head and the body follows etc).

Well how you describe KBS and how he describes sparring for the street in that link is pretty different. The type of sparring he describes sounds fun but I don't get the impression he has his guys actually do it, he's basically describing MMA and/or some sort of mass brawl. There is no way to sparr like that and not get constantly hurt.


That's disappointing. I think one advantage of BJJ over karate and why there is more of a market for adult BJJ lessons is bjj is kind of a white collar sport that is still similar enough to MMA. It has just enough contact to feel like a fight but not enough so that one has to miss work after losing a tournament most times.

 

[Hotora86]

Well how you describe KBS and how he describes sparring for the street in that link is pretty different. The type of sparring he describes sounds fun but I don't get the impression he has his guys actually do it, he's basically describing MMA and/or some sort of mass brawl. There is no way to sparr like that and not get constantly hurt.


That's disappointing. I think one advantage of BJJ over karate and why there is more of a market for adult BJJ lessons is bjj is kind of a white collar sport that is still similar enough to MMA. It has just enough contact to feel like a fight but not enough so that one has to miss work after losing a tournament most times.

Well yes, unless the guy you're fighting in the tourney (or even sparring) is an asshole and your shoulder pops. Been there.

And yeah, KBS is different from what Iain called "sparring for the streets". SftS almost sounds like Krav Maga... and shares similar pitfalls.

 

[dsdoubled]

I think the whole "I'm only a striker" or "i'm only a grappler" thing is relatively recent and "MMA" is more of a return to tradition than something new.

Most of those old Japanese karate black belts had a black belt in Judo, there were probably some throws that originated in Okinawa as well.

It seems when they marketed Karate in America, they took the grappling out or most people didn't feel the need to train Judo. You had people for the first time who only took Karate.

For instance, Enshin Karate is a blend of Kyokushin and Judo. The founder was a Kyokushin black belt who also held a black belt in Judo, this was not really out of the ordinary.

Ive heard that Tarec Saffiedine started off in a form of karate similar to this. Im not sure exactly which one but it sounds like it.

 

[dsdoubled]

Not bad. Lyoto Machida's throws largely come from his karate background, and he's put guys like Dan Henderson on their asses. The transitional striking -> throwing stuff I've always liked.

He hit some real nice ones on Nakamura and Im pretty sure he got Sokodjou with one or two as well. Which makes it pretty impressive considering those guys judo credentials. After seeing Machida in those fights and then watching him toss Tito (another grappler with very good credentials) I became thoroughly impressed with his TD game. Ive heard hes done some sumo as well as his karate and Bjj. And also, Im sure you know that GSP gives most of the credit for his incredible TD game to his karate background. He says it taught him distance, timing, and explosiveness that made picking up wrestling much easier. This is one of my favorite elements of MMA. You can have a background in martial art A and martial art B and apply that to becoming very proficient in martial art C in a short amount of time.

 

[dsdoubled]

I think the whole "I'm only a striker" or "i'm only a grappler" thing is relatively recent and "MMA" is more of a return to tradition than something new.

Most of those old Japanese karate black belts had a black belt in Judo, there were probably some throws that originated in Okinawa as well.

It seems when they marketed Karate in America, they took the grappling out or most people didn't feel the need to train Judo. You had people for the first time who only took Karate.

For instance, Enshin Karate is a blend of Kyokushin and Judo. The founder was a Kyokushin black belt who also held a black belt in Judo, this was not really out of the ordinary.

Yeah I think you're right. For every 10-20 McDojos that popped up in the 80s and 90s there were probably 1-2 legit self defense karate or TMA schools. I remember as a kid my uncle taught me all kinds of submission holds, takedowns, grappling techniques, strikes, etc. And he studied for years in a nihon jujutsu school. They did intense conditioning and taught a well rounded curriculum. I also had a buddy who could fight his ass off train at a Hwa Rang Do school. Also, I had another friend who learned to fight and he said he was training with a guy who knew jung do kwan which I believe is an off shoot or subset of tae kwan do. He learned grappling and strikes as well. So im sure that most martial arts are/were relatively comprehensive. I guess it shouldn't surprise us that they figured out early on that you need to know how to fight in all areas of combat to be effective.

 

[Hotora86]

Ive heard that Tarec Saffiedine started off in a form of karate similar to this. Im not sure exactly which one but it sounds like it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarec_Saffiedine

Inspired by the Japanese comic bookTough, he finally took up Karate at age 16, and in 2005 received a black belt in Shihaishinkai, a style of knockdown karate that includes striking, throws and ground fighting.

 

[kamalayka]

The truth is that historic karate is a mixed martial art from Okinawa. Tegumi wrestling, which is essentially a primitive form of jujitsu mixed with sumo technique, is Okinawa's original martial art. When the Ryukyu Kingdom of Okinawa established trade with China, the tegumi wrestlers were exposed to Chinese striking techniques. Over time, tegumi absorbed these striking techniques into a striking/wrestling style known as "te," which evolved into "shuri-te" and "kare-te" during the 18th and 19th centuries. Shuri-te/kara-te employed strikes, joint locks, takedowns, throws, sweeps, and grappling. This fact is evidenced in modern karate kata, where lots of these techniques are embedded among the movements.

Unfortunately, once karate spread to Japan during the 20th century, the government decided to include a watered-down sport version of it in the public school cirriculum. Most karate schools outside of Okinawa are simply incomplete.

True Okinawan karate was and is a complete fighting system that can hold its own against any fighter. And some people are working to protect this endangered knowledge.


Real karate:



vs


Shameful nonsense:

 

[Matsukaze]

What in the world did I just watch? That was awful

 

[Hotora86]

One more:



Very simple but sadly even such simple stuff is rarely taught in most Karate dojos so props to Iain for doing it.

 

[RJ Green]

 

[Hotora86]

LOL long-ass gif to convey what I assume to be disappointment?

I mean, if you expected some really original or high-level stuff here then sorry but there won't be any. The thread's objective is to show that the traditional Karate curriculum incorporates throws and takedowns to a much larger extent that usually perceived by non-practitioners but even by practitioners as well. These techniques will of course be quite basic and rudimentary since the art's primary goal was self-defense and escape and not extensive grappling proficiency.

Still, it is worth noting that original Karate teaching does highlight the need to know and practice takedowns and takedown defense. The recent video shows a throw from Bubishi - and that's as ancient a source as you can get.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

One more:



Very simple but sadly even such simple stuff is rarely taught in most Karate dojos so props to Iain for doing it.

I'm going to nit pick and this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. It gets old hearing the "we don't want to go to the ground because his friends might stomp us". While that is partially true, I think it glosses over the more important reason we should sometimes choose not to engage ground fighting in self defense: it causes you to commit to the combat encounter instead of simply escaping.

If I hit a single in a self defense combat encounter, and follow to the ground, then mentally I am fully committed to seeing this encounter to the end. And the end result could be messy. Of course it could be necessary to commit that fully, like you think the person is going to try to harm you more later if you were to escape. But I think for a vast majority of situations, putting the other person on the ground and then disengaging is the more positive outcome. Physically and legally speaking.

But just saying "we can't go to the ground because he has buddies" completely ignores and diminishes what I thin is the true reason to not go down, which is to disengage from the situation as quickly as possible, and retreat.

/rant over

 

[Hotora86]

I'm going to nit pick and this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. It gets old hearing the "we don't want to go to the ground because his friends might stomp us". While that is partially true, I think it glosses over the more important reason we should sometimes choose not to engage ground fighting in self defense: it causes you to commit to the combat encounter instead of simply escaping.

If I hit a single in a self defense combat encounter, and follow to the ground, then mentally I am fully committed to seeing this encounter to the end. And the end result could be messy. Of course it could be necessary to commit that fully, like you think the person is going to try to harm you more later if you were to escape. But I think for a vast majority of situations, putting the other person on the ground and then disengaging is the more positive outcome. Physically and legally speaking.

But just saying "we can't go to the ground because he has buddies" completely ignores and diminishes what I thin is the true reason to not go down, which is to disengage from the situation as quickly as possible, and retreat.

/rant over

I fully agree and, while Iain does bring up "buddies" in this particular video, the majority of the demos and drills that he does end with him saying "and back away" so I think he'd agree with you too.

 

[Hotora86]

New clip:



Yes, of course it looks a lot like Judo. There are natural ways to throw an opponent that many martial arts arrive at.