Karate throws

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Yes, of course it looks a lot like Judo. There are natural ways to throw an opponent that many martial arts arrive at.

Why don't more Karate people participate in San Shou/San Da or Kudo competitions? It seems a natural fit for those people who choose to train the throw part too.
 
Why don't more Karate people participate in San Shou/San Da or Kudo competitions? It seems a natural fit for those people who choose to train the throw part too.
They do in Kudo. Actually Kudo itself used to be a Karate style (Daido Juku Karate). A mix of Karate, Judo and boxing basically. Many Karateka who want more out of their training switch to Kudo, especially from Kyokushin. @Azam made the switch IIRC.
 
They do in Kudo. Actually Kudo itself used to be a Karate style (Daido Juku Karate). A mix of Karate, Judo and boxing basically. Many Karateka who want more out of their training switch to Kudo, especially from Kyokushin. @Azam made the switch IIRC.
Oh I'm aware of the history, I'm just baffled as to why Kudo is so small. Or maybe the sport is bigger now than I think it is?
 
Why don't more Karate people participate in San Shou/San Da or Kudo competitions? It seems a natural fit for those people who choose to train the throw part too.

I believe that Karate as a self defense system was made to not attack first, and disengage as quickly as possible. From my understanding, and research Karate at its root is not about fighting. It is about self defense, and self preservation using what is necessary in order to permit escape. Wrestling competition of any kind is not about escape it's about establishing dominance. Wrestling and Judo both have stalling, and defensive posture calls to facilitate you to be the aggressor. BJJ guys who score points, and then ride out the clock have also been heavily criticized. I think it's because the ideologies at the root of Karate as opposed to any type of grappling or even any type of fight competition are different. Now if you want to use Karate to fight, then yes I agree. Train the throws.
 
Oh I'm aware of the history, I'm just baffled as to why Kudo is so small. Or maybe the sport is bigger now than I think it is?
I think it may be bigger than you think. Kudo is practiced in more than 52 countries, with the largest representation in Russia.

KIF_Affiliated_Countries_%26_Aspirants_%282011-10-31%29.png

(green are candidate countries)

Kudo is HUGE in Russia. Russians have actually overtaken the Japanese in tournaments. The first ever "Asian Cup" of 2014 saw Russians taking gold and silver in ALL weight classes plus bronze in 5 out of 7! Talk about dominance!

Source: http://www.daidojuku.com/eng/news/2014/detail/14003.html

I have the impression that Sambo is more popular in Russia's capital and European part, while Kudo is more popular in the Asian part of the country. As for Dagestan, they train everything there. :p
 
I believe that Karate as a self defense system was made to not attack first, and disengage as quickly as possible. From my understanding, and research Karate at its root is not about fighting. It is about self defense, and self preservation using what is necessary in order to permit escape. Wrestling competition of any kind is not about escape it's about establishing dominance. Wrestling and Judo both have stalling, and defensive posture calls to facilitate you to be the aggressor. BJJ guys who score points, and then ride out the clock have also been heavily criticized. I think it's because the ideologies at the root of Karate as opposed to any type of grappling or even any type of fight competition are different. Now if you want to use Karate to fight, then yes I agree. Train the throws.
This may come as a surprise but wrestling / grappling was actually a vital base of original 15th century Okinawan Karate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi

"tegumi was probably the original form of fighting in Okinawa and, as it was enhanced by striking and kicking techniques imported from China, became the progenitor of Te, which is the foundation of modern karate."

Wrestling is an essential skill you need to posses for effective self-defense and the old masters knew it. They also trained and mixed different arts, taking what was useful and practical and adding it to their skillset. The idea of Karate being primarily a "striking art" only emerged post WW2. Same goes for "ikken hissatsu" (kill with one strike), wide stances, hard blocks, kata-centric training and point sparring.

Check out the threads in my sig if you want to learn more, especially these two:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/kendo-the-shift-in-karate-mentality-and-competition.3731269/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/psa-karate-blocks-are-not-blocks.3816397/
 
Gracies did Judo when they supplemented the takedowns. At the Georges Mehdi school not wrestling. So Judo disciple style cross training with Judo schooled wrestlers.

Grappling dominates MMA not wrestling, wrestling is a kind of grappling. Saying that Japanese styles of wrestling will lose to 6 months of wrestling is asinine and xenophobic / disparaging.
It is as bad as the BJJ guys that give no respect to Judo or Sambo. A wrestler and a Judoka or BJJ guy of equal skill is a coin toss.
I actually give the edge to the "japanese arts" because submissions are trained in them natively. But wrestling can win when they train sub defense and strike they just aren't favoured.
Actually the Gracies, especially the earlier Gracies like Rolls, have always been heavily involved in wrestling. So much so that they were largely responsible for the formation of a Brazilian National wrestling program. The tradition has continued all the way up until present day with Rickson helping to form the Brazilian sambo team while also competing in freestyle and greco, Rener, Ralek, and Ryron being good California State HS wrestlers, and Rolles, Igor, and Gregor wrestling senior level freestyle leading up to the Rio Olympics.

Im not saying they weren't heavily involved with judo too, but the Gracies have always been wrestlers as well.
 
Not bad. Lyoto Machida's throws largely come from his karate background, and he's put guys like Dan Henderson on their asses. The transitional striking -> throwing stuff I've always liked.
Machida has an amazing background for grappling and especially takedowns. Not only with karate, sumo, Bjj and judo, but he actually spent quite a while early on training under Rico Chiapparelli. Rico spoke very highly of Machida's wrestling.
 
Machida has an amazing background for grappling and especially takedowns. Not only with karate, sumo, Bjj and judo, but he actually spent quite a while early on training under Rico Chiapparelli. Rico spoke very highly of Machida's wrestling.
I don't think he ever trained Judo. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
I don't think he ever trained Judo. Correct me if I am wrong.
No you may be right. I think of a Japanese/Brazilian who has trained everything from karate to sumo to muay thai to wresting to bjj I assumed there'd be some judo in there. Especially with the martial arts culture of Japan and Brazil being so heavily into judo. But now that I think of it, being so good at karate, sumo, muay thai, wrestling, and Bjj kinda makes you good at judo by default.
 
This may come as a surprise but wrestling / grappling was actually a vital base of original 15th century Okinawan Karate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi

"tegumi was probably the original form of fighting in Okinawa and, as it was enhanced by striking and kicking techniques imported from China, became the progenitor of Te, which is the foundation of modern karate."

Wrestling is an essential skill you need to posses for effective self-defense and the old masters knew it. They also trained and mixed different arts, taking what was useful and practical and adding it to their skillset. The idea of Karate being primarily a "striking art" only emerged post WW2. Same goes for "ikken hissatsu" (kill with one strike), wide stances, hard blocks, kata-centric training and point sparring.

Check out the threads in my sig if you want to learn more, especially these two:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/kendo-the-shift-in-karate-mentality-and-competition.3731269/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/psa-karate-blocks-are-not-blocks.3816397/

Thank you for these sources. I've read about Tegumi. To have knowledge of grappling is of course needed. Everything in context though. Tegumi, sparring, kumite is all pressure testing techniques to see how they work. They are forms of competing. Tegumi was a competition, and borrowed from other styles. Any time you borrow from styles you have to understand what is the context or reasoning behind it? What is the mindset (purpose) of the style I'm cross training in?

"It seems that tegumi evolved from a primitive form of grappling self-defense, which was constantly being adapted and enhanced as it was exposed to outside influences." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi)

Tegumi was a competition just as wrestling, judo, and bjj are:

"Known as tegumi in Naha, and mutō in Tomari and Shuri, Okinawan wrestling remained a popular cultural recreation until the Taishō period (1912 – 1925). There is little evidence of how tegumi evolved but the result was a rough and tumble bout where the winner was decided by submission, through joint locks, strangles or pinning. Today, tegumi has a strict set of rules and is still practiced widely." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi)

Self defense is about getting away from a threat to my person. The more you engage with a person the less "self defense" you are offering yourself, because the longer you're involved the more opportunity to lose the upper hand or allowing the factors of the battlespace to change. Eliminate the threat, and be removed from it as quickly as possible. The more range you establish the less means of attack can be applied to you. Running, and avoidance in truth is the best self defense. It will eliminate the threat from your presence. I'm not saying don't train grappling, I'm saying don't get embedded in that culture (mindset), and determine what your ultimate intent is. I believe there is a blurred crossover between what is self defense, what is competition, and what are the objectives of each? Thank you for listening.
 
Why don't more Karate people participate in San Shou/San Da or Kudo competitions? It seems a natural fit for those people who choose to train the throw part too.
Ive often wondered the same about combatants from other fringe martial arts. And the funny thing is, there is a good bit of overlap between them all. Sambo and shootboxing (S-Cup) and san shou/san da, and pankration, and apparently this Kudo thing I wasn't familiar with before.
 
Man that first throw in the video has been in ingrained in me ever since I started training Shotokan Karate at the age of 13 , and in MMA it helped me a lot in Sparring and in general street fighting defense , I Believe everyone should try to learn it.
 
A bit late to the party...

They do in Kudo. Actually Kudo itself used to be a Karate style (Daido Juku Karate). A mix of Karate, Judo and boxing basically. Many Karateka who want more out of their training switch to Kudo, especially from Kyokushin. @Azam made the switch IIRC.

Yes I switched from kyokushin karate to Kudo & Uechi ryu permanently. I think it's normal to switch styles as you get more experience and knowledge about martial arts in general.

Kyokushin just wasn't for me anymore. One of my favourite fighters are still Hajime Kazumi & Ryu Narushima though!




Oh I'm aware of the history, I'm just baffled as to why Kudo is so small. Or maybe the sport is bigger now than I think it is?

It's small relatively speaking because it's only recently decided to focus on growth abroad & internationally. I think about 10 years ago there was a concerted effort from Japan to grow Kudo internationally. It is small but growing quickly. I think at the moment it's in about 70 ish countries. The world tournaments and even regional tournaments are getting significantly bigger as well. I think it will always be a bit of niche sport but I think those in traditional martial arts that want the traditional aspect along with modern sparring/methods will be drawn to Kudo - at least as a secondary art.


I think it may be bigger than you think. Kudo is practiced in more than 52 countries, with the largest representation in Russia.

KIF_Affiliated_Countries_%26_Aspirants_%282011-10-31%29.png

(green are candidate countries)

Kudo is HUGE in Russia. Russians have actually overtaken the Japanese in tournaments. The first ever "Asian Cup" of 2014 saw Russians taking gold and silver in ALL weight classes plus bronze in 5 out of 7! Talk about dominance!

Source: http://www.daidojuku.com/eng/news/2014/detail/14003.html

I have the impression that Sambo is more popular in Russia's capital and European part, while Kudo is more popular in the Asian part of the country. As for Dagestan, they train everything there. :p

Kudo has always been huge in Russia. It has the largest contingent of students/fighters - bigger than the numbers in Japan I think.

Russians are hugely successful in nearly all martial arts tournaments they compete in. They are dominant in Kudo, Kyokushin, wrestling etc.

I think it's because of the governmental structure and support in Russia for sports. A lot of countries like those in Europe and Japan for example don't have that level of support for sports except on the Olympic stage. A lot of fighters are awarded financially for success in tournaments and receive sponsorship, allowing them to train day in day out. There is a financial incentive there. Whereas in other parts of the world including Japan - you have people who compete in Kudo that also have full time jobs and have virtually zero financial incentive or sponsorship.

I think that there are also talented fighters in Russia too. That combined with the above is the reason for the dominance in Kudo & other martial arts competitions.

I know for a fact that there are many professional Russian MMA fighters (whose style is kudo) that compete in Kudo tournaments. So it's basically like having professional and amateurs fighting in the same tournament. That's also another reason why the Russians dominate so much in Kudo. You do have the occasional non-Russian pro fighter competing also and they also tend to do very well.

Then add to that the poor drug testing controls. A lot of fighters in kyokushin & kudo from those areas of the world are notorious for ped usage. I think nearly 7 or 10 medalists in the KWU tournament for example were popped for drugs and that was very minimal testing. I don't think this is exclusive though to KK & Kudo - I think most martial arts competitions and sports have this problem.
 
This one's pretty weird, wonder what you guys think about it.

 
It seems that American Hero Derrick Lewis has been studying this deadly stuff.

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It seems that American Hero Derrick Lewis has been studying this deadly stuff.

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Derrick comes in *way* too low for it to work and there's no hip contact, only knee to knee. Doesn't help that Volkov is a freakishly tall dude and seems to know exactly what Derrick is going for.

Here's a new vid from Iain, the last throw is the one (probably) attempted here but note how different it looks.

 
Another one from our very own @BudoNoah !



Thanks for sharing! I wish I could have done the throw better, but my health isn't up to it, at the moment--even this gentle demonstration left me in pain for a week. Hopefully it gets the idea across, though! While we are at it, I did compile a playlist of videos we had done that went over throwing methods, a while back, which might be of some use:
 
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