Karate throws

[AshiharaFan]

I've always thought it would be harder to find a better practical street self defense art than Enshin, just because so much of it seems to be grabbing clothing and beating the shit out of the guy which is what seems to happen in the majority of street fights I've seen.

I agree with you about Enshin Karate being a good art for street self defense. It's awesome. Is there a better more practical street self defense art than Enshin Karate? Well, what do you think about Kudo?

 

[Uchi Mata]

I agree with you about Enshin Karate being a good art for street self defense. It's awesome. Is there a better more practical street self defense art than Enshin Karate? Well, what do you think about Kudo?

I like that even better (because head punches)! Reminds me a lot of combat Sambo, which is also a great self defense style. Looks like a ton of fun.

 

[CFGroup]

This is similar to the situation with Aikido.

The people who trained Aikido to a high level in Japan would have been well rounded martial artists with Karate and Judo backgrounds.

After a while you had people only training Aikido who had massive holes in their ability to fight effectively.

Aikido is great in certain areas like disarms but it is not a standalone martial art.

The Aikido I trained is more like the Okinawan comment above. "Karate" in traditional terms is more standing grappling then "striking" as Americans view it. A USMC training partner stationed in Okinawa trained Go Ju and Okinawan Kempo for years. His exercises emphasis close in short strikes to grabs to throws. Imagine if Judo Randuri started with gripping and striking with palms fists and elbows as dominant grip was being established. In that Aikido the blending into attacks is really setting up for elbows to the throat or for arms to the face for Irimi Nage "throws" shoulder elbow and wrist "locks". The object derived from the Daito Ryu origin is to use the environment to throw opponents against objects, the ground and walls while controlling them, then project them away. One of the best principles is and I quote "The final throw is like how you throw away the candy bar wrapper, the damage is already done" In historical terms you're just throwing away the body. At the highest level the blending is so quick it's moving forward with Atemi, grabbing, then redirecting to throw.

I agree that in most cases people training now are missing most of the intent hidden in the symbolic techniques, but that's what Ueshiba Sensei was emphasizing at the end of his life, so it's small pockets of practitioners with as you say, many years of other arts, that can unlock the more "effective" Daito Ryu Jujitsu principles.

 

[CFGroup]

I agree with you about Enshin Karate being a good art for street self defense. It's awesome. Is there a better more practical street self defense art than Enshin Karate? Well, what do you think about Kudo?

Kudo encompasses it all! Those guys r beasts! Wish there was a lineage school near me to wrap up all these parts I've trained for years into one package!

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Source: Iain Abernethy

"In this video you can see a quick summation of a number of karate throws. This summary was for people at a gathering in the UK in June 2016. We had previously spent quite a bit of time on the associated gripping skills, but that is not covered in this clip. The throws had been previously taught in some depth to those present and hence this quick recap should not be considered to be instructional in nature.

In the 1935 book Karate-Do Kyohan, Gichin Funakoshi wrote “In karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and pressure against joints are included.” Sadly, this side of karate is not as widely practised today as it was in the past. Things are changing though and we see ever greater numbers returning to a more holistic and authentic karate.

In this video you can see Funakoshi’s throws Byobudaoshi, Nodo-Osae & Kubi-Wa (variation) throws. We also look at one version of the Makikomi throw in Heian Sandan.

Throwing is very much a secondary method in karate and preference is always given to the striking methods. It’s important to have knowledge of this side of karate too though if the art is not to be limited and one-dimensional.

Although these throws can be used in fighting, for self-defence we need to be careful to keep our feet / regain them quickly, and use the throws as a means to facilitate escape; as opposed to gaining a dominate position for any ensuing groundwork (due to the risk posed by potential third parties)."

So Sherdog grapplers - what do you think?

But why is the black gi grabbing the back of the head like that? In a jacket wrestling match, he would grab collar, and stiff arm. Then that osoto gari being showed the way it is with the gripping it has will be harder to achieve.

 

[Hotora86]

But why is the black gi grabbing the back of the head like that? In a jacket wrestling match, he would grab collar, and stiff arm. Then that osoto gari being showed the way it is with the gripping it has will be harder to achieve.

Karate was (and still is) meant primarily for defense against an untrained opponent. Obviously trying to throw a Judo blackbelt like that (who knows how to defend and counter) would be a dumb idea. However if you're jumped by a street thug you have a decent chance of striking/throwing and escaping as shown.

In a "jacket wrestling match" grabbing the throat as shown is also not legal - one always adapts his strategy based on the situation he is in and the opponent's potential. So of course, the techniques shown would be a bad idea in one situation and a good in another.

 

[Hotora86]

The Aikido I trained is more like the Okinawan comment above. "Karate" in traditional terms is more standing grappling then "striking" as Americans view it. A USMC training partner stationed in Okinawa trained Go Ju and Okinawan Kempo for years. His exercises emphasis close in short strikes to grabs to throws. Imagine if Judo Randuri started with gripping and striking with palms fists and elbows as dominant grip was being established. In that Aikido the blending into attacks is really setting up for elbows to the throat or for arms to the face for Irimi Nage "throws" shoulder elbow and wrist "locks". The object derived from the Daito Ryu origin is to use the environment to throw opponents against objects, the ground and walls while controlling them, then project them away. One of the best principles is and I quote "The final throw is like how you throw away the candy bar wrapper, the damage is already done" In historical terms you're just throwing away the body. At the highest level the blending is so quick it's moving forward with Atemi, grabbing, then redirecting to throw.

I agree that in most cases people training now are missing most of the intent hidden in the symbolic techniques, but that's what Ueshiba Sensei was emphasizing at the end of his life, so it's small pockets of practitioners with as you say, many years of other arts, that can unlock the more "effective" Daito Ryu Jujitsu principles.

It's funny how we all come to the same conclusions - Karate, Aikido and other TMAs unlock their potential after extensive cross-training. IMHO that is simply because they themselves were THE cross-training arts of their time (like MMA). Karate borrowed from every style in the region, Aikido was only for experienced masters of other arts etc. Cross-training was, is and will be key - and I hope more TMA teachers embrace this over time.

 

[Lamfadha]

I wish I could have stuck with Kyokushin, have a Blackbelt then get a Judo Blackbelt and petition to get a Kudo BB and open a Dojo.

To the point about "TMA's" I agree. They were the crosstrained complete arts that scientifically got to the point that MMA is (relative to their own time) then stagnated.
Look at Judo and how the rules dictating the behavuor has made them less effective in MMA compared to BJJ. Why would that not happen to Karate as well?

I say this again and again look at Karate that has good sparring rules and you have effective Karate.
Like Kano apparently learned a firemans carry (internet research don't kill me Judo-ka) from a wrestling book to beat a bigger Ju Jitsu-ka, now no leg grabs make it almost illegal in competition for crying out loud.

 

[CFGroup]

It's funny how we all come to the same conclusions - Karate, Aikido and other TMAs unlock their potential after extensive cross-training. IMHO that is simply because they themselves were THE cross-training arts of their time (like MMA). Karate borrowed from every style in the region, Aikido was only for experienced masters of other arts etc. Cross-training was, is and will be key - and I hope more TMA teachers embrace this over time.

Well so much of what left China and Japan was incomplete arts. Most of what we know in America was from GI's on 1 year deployments who trained only that long, returned state side and tried to rebuild what they had learned. As we all know it takes years to absorb a system and when, as some of us do, seek out the immigrants with the complete systems our arts look totally different than the perception and what's taught here.

Japanese Martial Arts started to "soften" after the 1860's war with the west. The era of non firearms warfare ended, so the combat skills evolved. After WW2 Martial Arts were strictly regulated to "sport" and "educational" emphasis only. That's how Judo really became the sport influenced art it is. Karate, became the Phys Ed of the rebuilt school system, and ex combat vet's like Ueshiba Sensei took the spiritual path for Aikido. The warfare history of Japan has had a huge effect on the Martial Arts from that country and the political upheaval of all of Asia has effected theirs as well.

I was just thinking after reading this thread how Osoto Gari is in essence the same throw as Aikido's Irimi Nage. The body positions are the same, they just differ in grip, inside leg trap. Obviously with the weapons disarm focus Aikido doesn't follow Uki to the ground but the pre war lineages have the full range of Judo Koshi Nage.

 

[Eternalfutility]

6 months of wrestling will make you an infinitely better fighter than years of japanese martial arts

 

[Lamfadha]

6 months of wrestling will make you an infinitely better fighter than years of japanese martial arts

So when they get subbed by a Judo Ka or SAMBO background (subs introduced by Judo) they are the better fighter?
Also BJJ being a Japanese art originally and we know how that turned out for wrestlers subbed by someone they outweigh by 100lbs. Get out of here with the xenophobia.

 

[spacetime]

Great point, Karate got "refined" in Japan at some point but in a very bad sense of the word - they took out most of Karate's original throws since most students knew Judo already and wanted to focus on striking more. When Karate left Japan and began its conquest of the world the grappling aspect was almost completely left out.

Luckily we now have a few guys like Abernethy who aren't afraid to leave the "striking comfort zone" and actually research (and sometimes even re-invent) the throws hidden in kata.

Funakoshi emphasised throws in Karate.. And those were from.. Guess what, JAPAN, and jujitsu...not Okinawa.

 

[Eternalfutility]

So when they get subbed by a Judo Ka or SAMBO background (subs introduced by Judo) they are the better fighter?
Also BJJ being a Japanese art originally and we know how that turned out for wrestlers subbed by someone they outweigh by 100lbs. Get out of here with the xenophobia.

getting subbed in an mma contest is an entirely different affair, the gracies understood wrestling and the wrestlers didn't understand jiu-jitsu yet, imagine ufc 5 Dan Severn and not UFC Severn, tell me how he would survive punishment from the man who almost Oleg Taktarov, why is mma wrestling dominated?

 

[Lamfadha]

getting subbed in an mma contest is an entirely different affair, the gracies understood wrestling and the wrestlers didn't understand jiu-jitsu yet, imagine ufc 5 Dan Severn and not UFC Severn, tell me how he would survive punishment from the man who almost Oleg Taktarov, why is mma wrestling dominated?

Gracies did Judo when they supplemented the takedowns. At the Georges Mehdi school not wrestling. So Judo disciple style cross training with Judo schooled wrestlers.

Grappling dominates MMA not wrestling, wrestling is a kind of grappling. Saying that Japanese styles of wrestling will lose to 6 months of wrestling is asinine and xenophobic / disparaging.
It is as bad as the BJJ guys that give no respect to Judo or Sambo. A wrestler and a Judoka or BJJ guy of equal skill is a coin toss.
I actually give the edge to the "japanese arts" because submissions are trained in them natively. But wrestling can win when they train sub defense and strike they just aren't favoured.

 

[Hotora86]

Funakoshi emphasised throws in Karate.. And those were from.. Guess what, JAPAN, and jujitsu...not Okinawa.

Okinawa had tegumi - a throwing art which Funakoshi certainly knew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi

Of course he learned Japanese throws as well and was on friendly terms with Kano himself. I don't really care where the throws in Karate come from - I care that they are not dismissed or forgotten!

 

[RJ Green]

6 months of wrestling will make you an infinitely better fighter than years of japanese martial arts

Challenge accepted. You have 6 months.

 

[spacetime]

Okinawa had tegumi - a throwing art which Funakoshi certainly knew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi

Of course he learned Japanese throws as well and was on friendly terms with Kano himself. I don't really care where the throws in Karate come from - I care that they are not dismissed or forgotten!

But this notion that Japanese Karate was watered down is total bs. Funakoshi made the movements sharper. Look at the katas in okinawa, their stance for one, and shaking bodies... Looks more like salsa than Martial arts.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Found something very interesting today... let's say it is quite a stretch so take it with a grain of salt, but it sure is creative to find groundwork in Karate kata. Anyway, curious what you guys think.

That was surprisingly good...

 

[Hotora86]

But this notion that Japanese Karate was watered down is total bs. Funakoshi made the movements sharper. Look at the katas in okinawa, their stance for one, and shaking bodies... Looks more like salsa than Martial arts.

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/10-differences-okinawan-karate-japanese-karate/
But I'm not gonna argue.
That's your opinion, this is mine and nobody is convincing anyone, as far as I can see.

 

[Hotora86]

That was surprisingly good...

Glad to hear it from a BJJ guy!