Judo vs wrestling

[BJJ_Rage]

you are going to get flamed as fuck in this forum for what you just did...

I wont help either that it makes no sense to say some judo player is #3 and Japan and #2 in the world

it also wont help if its true that the guy was ranked 92 a year ago... (if its true)

I believe wrestling is the strongest most effective art to train for stand up grappling though...

 

[slick1111]

yuo do learn that in judo but not to the extent you do in wrestling, mainly as a result of the rule set. i think judo is great but the focus is mainly try and do an impressive throw to score and win, when you land not only does it takes its toll on you but does not necessarily put you in the best position. wrestling just has more free grappling in a number of different positions along with the manner in which it is trained just provide more of a full grappling experience. I kow a lot of wreslers tah did judo in the off season and had fun, but it is a defferent mind set when you on on your feet whith judo. you are looking for the sweeps and trying to posion your hips right. If you have a feeling for both skill sets that is where its at, since when you drill stuff you want to be able to just react with what ever you feel like you can get.

 

[Cgko]

Well i'm a new poster but i've been following the forum for some months now. I Think most of the people here would agree that cross training eg: between judo and Bjj is what makes a good overall grappler* and Wrestling is certainly a great base for grappling in general. The initial question was for the SD aspect though...

 

[Saenchai]

He's called Akinori Hongi and was rank 92 two months before the video, not sure about now - could be better or worse. Nowhere near the ranking the guy was claiming.

He looked terrible to be honest, like he'd never competed without a gi on.

The judo guy never competed no gi in his life! And its JAPAN, NO ONE trains NO GI there LOL.

you are going to get flamed as fuck in this forum for what you just did...

I wont help either that it makes no sense to say some judo player is #3 and Japan and #2 in the world

it also wont help if its true that the guy was ranked 92 a year ago... (if its true)

I believe wrestling is the strongest most effective art to train for stand up grappling though...

haha agreed. I still believe wrestling "narrow" direction on just sticking to singles and doubles (generalizing, I was a wrestler and I hit some of these sweeps in HS. Did end up teaching it to the team.) is their down fall. For example, Chael didn't even know what Vitor hit him with, he didn't even know what that footsweep/throw was. He wanted to learn it.

 

[Shemhazai]

I still believe wrestling "narrow" direction on just sticking to singles and doubles (generalizing, I was a wrestler and I hit some of these sweeps in HS. Did end up teaching it to the team.) is their down fall. For example, Chael didn't even know what Vitor hit him with, he didn't even know what that footsweep/throw was. He wanted to learn it.

U.S. wrestling focuses heavily on shooting doubles and singles, but if you go to Russia, for instance, it's a lot more varied. Hell, you even see that with judo - there are (or were) some mean high crotch/te guruma specialists among the Central Asian judoka. I think it's almost as much about the country/local styles as the art, really.

 

[shunyata]

Since you didn't care to reply to these points in the other thread(s), I'll say it again:

1. People don't usually attack you in open fields and vacant parking lots, they do so in nightclubs and back-alleys, and if you find yourself unable to close the distance, then you are not being attacked, nor forced to continue to fight. You're describing juvenile challenge matches, not self defense scenarios.

2. You completely ignore the fact that you can clinch and hit judo style throws by stuffing the opponent's shot and tying up with the whizzer, especially if your opponent is shooting from a distance. You see freestyle wrestlers do this all the time in the Olympics, and it's getting pretty common in the UFC as well. Finding a video of a judoka who sucks at defending against leg attacks proves very little.

Well, duh.


And I laugh my ass off at TS when he asserts there are no walls in self defense "in da streetz" scenarios. When people mention a street fight, it usually takes place on a side walk. Side walks generally have things like fences, hedges, and the exterior walls of buildings bordering them.

 

[Crossface9]

All I came here to say its idiotic to think a wrestler's knee has to touch the ground to shoot.... Sure its common in wrestling but you tweak it for a street fight or mma.

 

[Shemhazai]

All I came here to say its idiotic to think a wrestler's knee has to touch the ground to shoot.... Sure its common in wrestling but you tweak it for a street fight or mma.

It doesn't have to, but when the shit hits the fan and you fuck up/slip/the guy sprawls, it can still happen. Not an important point, but it's a factor. I'd be much more worried of getting kneed in the face, though.

 

[shunyata]

All I came here to say its idiotic to think a wrestler's knee has to touch the ground to shoot.... Sure its common in wrestling but you tweak it for a street fight or mma.

A bigger piece of idiocy is, where are all these D1 wrestlers that start street fights coming from?

Generally getting arrested for assault is a big no no for people competing in NCAA D1 sports and the kind of thing that could threaten one's scholarship and ability to compete for the school they are at.

 

[slick1111]

once you learn to wreslte you can make al other grappling arts more effective. you can even make akido work since a wreslte already has a feeling for how to move. if peaople want to really see which pure grapling fomr is most dominent then they should take two dudes from asticly theire own background like a sttrickly folkstyle wreslter and a pure bjj or judo dude and make those guys each compete in a match of all the differnet grappling forms. have them do a folkstyle match, a frees stlye match, a greco match, a sumo match, a judo match, a bjj match and a sambo match. do one match of each see who wins the most. stupid but why not then top it pff with an mma match at the end. just a thought. my money is on the folkstyle wrslter since i feel that is the most encompassing style

 

[slick1111]

as for street fights lets see is the is the tough guy wanna be who smokes and does some drugs and is out of shape going to detroy a dude who is in some sort of shape and has prbably been wrestling since he was six years old with tons of experience rolling around with other guys who have skill. the only way tough guy is winning is if wrestling dude is cought off gaurd or drunk. for the most part in the steet is stupid it really comes down to who cathces who first and who is ready to throw down and wh is not.

 

[Crossface9]

A bigger piece of idiocy is, where are all these D1 wrestlers that start street fights coming from?

Generally getting arrested for assault is a big no no for people competing in NCAA D1 sports and the kind of thing that could threaten one's scholarship and ability to compete for the school they are at.

haha yeah, I used to like vs thread but there pretty pointless to me now. I have seen one thread pretty sure it was the "If Tyson entered UFC 1" thread. This guy posted a video of a russian streetfight, from that video and what he said i got more from that then anyone else here on sherdog.

 

[Saenchai]

Sometimes I feel like in these VS threads, everyone forgets that you can SPRAWL. Shit, Do yo know how many people watch MMA/UFC now and days? They all know how to "sprawl" in some form or fashion.

No doubt wrestling is great, so is Judo. BUT no one here is trying to say Judo is better than Wrestling. Wrestling and Judo are two different things in terms of how their "game is played". One is more about shooting, the other is more like close range. Why would we need to compare the two if they both expertise in different aspect of grappling.

Don't come at me with the BS about wrestling also trains the same shit like Judo with out a gi. BS. I wrestled folk and free, freaking 1% does the throws, BUT they're all head and arm hip throw. And holy crap, we didn't even spend any time training throws! heck we were taught a hip throw, but never once spent a day training and drilling it, it was more like if he does this, just do this.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Sometimes I feel like in these VS threads, everyone forgets that you can SPRAWL. Shit, Do yo know how many people watch MMA/UFC now and days? They all know how to "sprawl" in some form or fashion.

No doubt wrestling is great, so is Judo. BUT no one here is trying to say Judo is better than Wrestling. Wrestling and Judo are two different things in terms of how their "game is played". One is more about shooting, the other is more like close range. Why would we need to compare the two if they both expertise in different aspect of grappling.

Don't come at me with the BS about wrestling also trains the same shit like Judo with out a gi. BS. I wrestled folk and free, freaking 1% does the throws, BUT they're all head and arm hip throw. And holy crap, we didn't even spend any time training throws! heck we were taught a hip throw, but never once spent a day training and drilling it, it was more like if he does this, just do this.

I feel the same way whenever Judo guys defend the existence of double legs in Judo. Yes, they exist, yes some guys were good at them prior to the rule changes, but compared to the average wrestler the average Judoka will have a really, really bad double leg. And in terms of defending shots, I've always found Judo guys (myself very much included) to have shitty shot defense because Judo is almost always more upright and the grips make shooting hard. Likewise, though I know certain wrestlers are very good at footsweeps and reaping throws I see them 50x as much in Judo and I've never grappled with a wrestler who came close to hitting me with a reaping throw or footsweep.

It's okay for practitioners of different arts to be better at different aspects of grappling, even if there is some technical crossover. It says nothing about which is 'better'.

 

[Q mystic]

[YT]btkrDUtJDPU[/YT]

As long as the wrestler doesn't tie up with the judo man he will win the takedown battle because he can shoot from a distance where the judo man cannot use his takedowns.This is why I feel wrestling is much more effective for grappling and street fighting (no walls like in mma to force a clinch). Judo throws are great but without a clinch it is useless, while wrestling is not but if there is a clinch there are still a ton of moves that can be used from wrestling. If you are fighting in an open area it is very hard to get a clinch established if the other guy doesn't wanna clinch. And if he has good stand up skills or atleast better than what you have (if you train exclusively grappling) you are gonna have a bad time if you can't shoot from a distance. Same thing applies to grappling comp. (like adcc) if the other guys avoids the clinch.

Judo sucks for any other grappling comps. In nogi, the crouch makes it difficult to pull off many judo throws well and in bjj the throws are only worth 2pts. I believe judo is better for when striking is involved.

Akiyama here is able to no-clinch judo throw often in mma with decent boxing skill and I think that if you are a decent boxer and knowing where you are on your feet with it then the judo throws in nogi for mma, can become exponentially better...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsZi1Zb7W60

 

[Uchi Mata]

Judo sucks for any other grappling comps. In nogi, the crouch makes it difficult to pull off many judo throws well and in bjj the throws are only worth 2pts. I believe judo is better for when striking is involved.

Akiyama here is able to no-clinch judo throw often in mma with decent boxing skill and I think that if you are a decent boxer and knowing where you are on your feet with it then the judo throws in nogi for mma, can become exponentially better...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsZi1Zb7W60

Judo's good for BJJ in the gi, starting on top with 2 points is much better than being forced to pull guard or risk getting throw yourself (not many good Judo guys will get taken down by pure BJJ guys). I do think Judo works well in MMA, mostly because the upright postures for striking lend themselves to Judo throws. Funnily enough, even though wrestlers have much better double legs than Judo guys, the Judo style double where rather than changing levels you just duck down and blast through his legs is actually more prevalent in MMA. GSP for example always shoots this way rather than changing levels. It works really well as a punch counter, again how GSP usually uses it.

 

[Crossface9]

What I got from that was, the guy whos most violent, has the less fear, and fights quick is most likely going to win, street fights are quick burts of violence and just because youre a grappler and they are a striker or don't train. That dosen't mean youre going to win, one of my favorite fighters Jake Ellenberger just froze on saturday. Hes a tough guy, fights in the UFC for crying out loud. He knows how to wrestle and knock people out hard. What do you think would happen to him if he did that on the street? No one knows who hes up against he could be fighting a boxer who turned to violence, hood whos been in a slew of streetfights and has that kill or be killed mentality etc. It's like what Tyson said "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face".

 

[Q mystic]

Judo's good for BJJ in the gi, starting on top with 2 points is much better than being forced to pull guard or risk getting throw yourself (not many good Judo guys will get taken down by pure BJJ guys). I do think Judo works well in MMA, mostly because the upright postures for striking lend themselves to Judo throws. Funnily enough, even though wrestlers have much better double legs than Judo guys, the Judo style double where rather than changing levels you just duck down and blast through his legs is actually more prevalent in MMA. GSP for example always shoots this way rather than changing levels. It works really well as a punch counter, again how GSP usually uses it.

Interesting point, Uchi. Reading that makes me wonder if I have personally been giving too much credit to the shot due to it's significance in grappling-only sports.

Also, (on another note, lol) so often we have heard Rogan stating the judoka's balance on his feet and/or core strength and I have chucked that off as obvious but I think he has been speaking deeper than what I had originally considered him to be. The standing in boxing, especially in close quarters, (or contact zone) is really sooo similar to the type of balance a judoka is typically using it's uncanny. Judoka in mma don't seem to bend at the waist as easily as others (which seems to draw the statement of confidence from Rogan) and it seems similar to boxing basics. The insistance to keep square has seemed common to me in both sports much moreso than others.. Just crossed my mind.=)

 

[Dangrabbit**]

how will you shoot on the streets? you will shatter your knees on the concrete...

[YT]1VJHCVya9eo[/YT]

Only an idiot that just slams his knee into the ground and doesn't know how to shoot would shatter his knee. I've wrestled on the concrete before when we didn't have mats

 

[Q mystic]

[YT]1VJHCVya9eo[/YT]

Only an idiot that just slams his knee into the ground and doesn't know how to shoot would shatter his knee. I've wrestled on the concrete before when we didn't have mats

Not to mention a shot wouldn't even have to be so low.