Is "open borders" a worthy long-term goal?

[Blackened]

I'm not commenting on individual anecdotes. But America is producing a lot more manufacturing output than it used to. Just takes fewer people to do it.

No doubt technology has replaced jobs, but apparently 75% of our jobs lost were due to our trade deals.
Harvard and Yale economists imply you're wrong in the source below. Am I missing something? 3.2 million jobs lost to China between 2001 and 2013, no?

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...s-schultz-trade-deals-closed-50000-factories/

 

[Blackened]

Here we have Mexico as an example. 15 manufacturing factories a day. Over 50,000 displaced factories.

Apparently my case isn't just anecdotal. Cheaper to pay Mexicans $0.58 an hour than Americans $20 an hour.

http://m.industryweek.com/who-is-killing-manufacturing

 

[HomerThompson]

No doubt technology has replaced jobs, but apparently 75% of our jobs lost were due to our trade deals.
Harvard and Yale economists imply you're wrong in the source below. Am I missing something? 3.2 million jobs lost to China between 2001 and 2013, no?

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...s-schultz-trade-deals-closed-50000-factories/

I feel confident you didn't read that entire article.

 

[Blackened]

I feel confident you didn't read that entire article.

I did. It says there is truth in what Jack is saying and there is truth in what I'm saying.

I feel confident you didn't comprehend what you read.

 

[Lord Commander Palis]

I don't think anyone in the WR supports the abolition of national borders and I don't think Hillary does either. In context it clearly sounds like a poetic flourish.

 

[Jack V Savage]

No doubt technology has replaced jobs, but apparently 75% of our jobs lost were due to our trade deals.

What does that even mean?

Whatever manufacturing we "lost" was more than replaced because we produce more. We just require fewer people to do it.

Harvard and Yale economists imply you're wrong in the source below. Am I missing something? 3.2 million jobs lost to China between 2001 and 2013, no?

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...s-schultz-trade-deals-closed-50000-factories/

Wrong link?

 

[Rod1]

I did. It says there is truth in what Jack is saying and there is truth in what I'm saying.

I feel confident you didn't comprehend what you read.

I think you are the one that isnt understanding, you are measuring manufacturing in terms of factories and jobs, when manufacturing is measured in terms of value of the things that are being produced.

Intel for example produces 75% of the semiconductors in the USA. But they arent creating blue collar jobs, they are creating high tech manufacturing jobs that require high education.

So while its true that a lot of jobs are being lost to China and Mexico, the truth is that American manufacturing has tripled since the 90s.

There are 2 types of manufacturing jobs in America, high volume manufacturing (oil, chemicals) and high end technology manufacturing (aircraft, electronics and the such).

 

[panamaican]

When we say open borders, we mean the ability to cross borders without a visa and a passport?

But it wouldn't mean citizenship or freedom from taxation?

So if I wanted to visit Mexico, I could just drive over? Or if I found a job in Venezuela, I could just take it? But I wouldn't become legally Mexican or Venezuelan without the formal paperwork stuff?

As a long term goal, that's really going to depend on the way work changes. My partner sat on an arbitration for a case in South America, open borders for something like that would obviously be beneficial. Tough conversation.

Conceptually, we have an open borders model right now with the 50 states and various territories (we can work anywhere but we can't vote everywhere and we owe tax where we live but we have to follow the laws of the state we're physically in at any given moment) and contrasted with having to get a piece of paper to drive from one state to the next, one is certainly easier than the other.

 

[RockstarChris]

Open borders always sounds nice until the drug cartels sew your kids face to a soccer ball and let kids play a game with it.

 

[lfd0311]

Just look how fast things, people, and information travels now imagine far into the future when we are colonizing planets and traveling in space and teleporting and shit but we still have closed borders with 5263678 types of currency to use. Sounds stupid

I was against open boarders, but reading this completely hypothetical and empty to post I'm now convinced we should get started immediately...

 

[IDL]

When we say open borders, we mean the ability to cross borders without a visa and a passport?

But it wouldn't mean citizenship or freedom from taxation?

So if I wanted to visit Mexico, I could just drive over? Or if I found a job in Venezuela, I could just take it? But I wouldn't become legally Mexican or Venezuelan without the formal paperwork stuff?

As a long term goal, that's really going to depend on the way work changes. My partner sat on an arbitration for a case in South America, open borders for something like that would obviously be beneficial. Tough conversation.

Conceptually, we have an open borders model right now with the 50 states and various territories (we can work anywhere but we can't vote everywhere and we owe tax where we live but we have to follow the laws of the state we're physically in at any given moment) and contrasted with having to get a piece of paper to drive from one state to the next, one is certainly easier than the other.

The precedent that has been built by the private powers is the schengen in Europe. So it's probably safe to assume it would be something similar.

Although, it does go a lot deeper than that when you look at how the powers are using migrations and demographics engineering. So even in Europe there is great pressure to bring large volumes of people from outside of Europe, to inside of it.

 

[panamaican]

The precedent that has been built by the private powers is the schengen in Europe. So it's probably safe to assume it would be something similar.

Although, it does go a lot deeper than that when you look at how the powers are using migrations and demographics engineering.

The schengen model is basically the same as how our state vs. federal borders operate. But the OP didn't clarify so I didn't see the point in assuming and put forward my own position.

Since I live here and travel abroad semi-regularly, I feel comfortable with my examples. If we're talking about open travel that doesn't come with open citizenship and all that it entails, I think it's better in the long term. How long is a different question.

 

[IDL]

The schengen model is basically the same as how our state vs. federal borders operate. But the OP didn't clarify so I didn't see the point in assuming and put forward my own position.

Since I live here and travel abroad semi-regularly, I feel comfortable with my examples. If we're talking about open travel that doesn't come with open citizenship and all that it entails, I think it's better in the long term. How long is a different question.

Yes it's sort of like turning nations, into American style states within a larger supranational entity. A scaling up.

Given Clintons history and audience of the open borders quote, that would be the best assumption as to what she means IMO. And the best realistic prediction considering those private powers who would be pushing for it.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

I was against open boarders, but reading this completely hypothetical and empty to post I'm now convinced we should get started immediately...

Me no likey open borders

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Factories have generally been in cities. And factory jobs didn't so much leave the country as get mechanized.

It is a bit of both. Factories that still rely on manpower have left your country, like assembling electronics. Highly automated factories are doing very well in the USA thanks to top notch technology, abundance of natural resources and good infrastructure.

The USA did lose the top spot to China though.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us...utput-has-doubled-in-three-decades-2016-03-28

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

And there will probably still be uncontacted tribes in 70 years, but i guess if we can concentrate 80%-90% of the world population living in high income economies, i think its not that far-fetched for the world to become even closer.

I think the main issues are not economic but socio-political.

The war on drugs must stop in the western hemisphere and Islam need to undergo a massive reformation in the eastern hemisphere.

What I mean is that it is not going to happen because Africa will have 30%+ of the world population and it will be still poor as fuck.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Well, if you take poor people out of every single third world country they arent that bad isnt? Thats not a good logical conclusion.

What I'm saying it is unfair to blame places like Mississipi which are 1/3 black on the evil redneck republicans. Send these people to Vermont and see how well they do.

These red states receive more funding than they pay in taxes because they have lots of minorities on welfare and subsidies because farming and mining are considered strategic in the entire world. Farmers receive subsidies in Brazil, Canada or China, not because they are a bunch of stupid hillbillies but because governments do not want to rely on food from other countries in an emergency, although politics also play a role(corn ethanol).

It is obvious Jack wants to paint a picture where stupid white republicans are too dumb to make money and need help from liberal living in big cities or they would look like Africa.

By saying cities carry the confederates you ignore demographics, geography(places with good farmland or natural resources will attract subsidies) and geopolitics(governments see importance in these areas).

For example, Alaska makes a lot of money but still receives subsidies because of mining which makes it look bad but it would certainly still sustain itself without help from the "cities". NY relies on cities so doesn't receive subsidies, although it benefits from resources extracted in Alaska.

 

[Rod1]

What I mean is that it is not going to happen because Africa will have 30%+ of the world population and it will be still poor as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

That being said 70 years is a lot of time, considering certain African countries have managed to keep its shit together and the chinese vested interest in developing the zone to be able to access its mineral wealth.

 

[Rod1]

What I'm saying it is unfair to blame places like Mississipi which are 1/3 black on the evil redneck republicans. Send these people to Vermont and see how well they do.

These red states receive more funding than they pay in taxes because they have lots of minorities on welfare and subsidies because farming and mining are considered strategic in the entire world. Farmers receive subsidies in Brazil, Canada or China, not because they are a bunch of stupid hillbillies but because governments do not want to rely on food from other countries in an emergency, although politics also play a role(corn ethanol).

It is obvious Jack wants to paint a picture where stupid white republicans are too dumb to make money and need help from liberal living in big cities or they would look like Africa.

By saying cities carry the confederates you ignore demographics, geography(places with good farmland or natural resources will attract subsidies) and geopolitics(governments see importance in these areas).

For example, Alaska makes a lot of money but still receives subsidies because of mining which makes it look bad but it would certainly still sustain itself without help from the "cities". NY relies on cities so doesn't receive subsidies, although it benefits from resources extracted in Alaska.

Blacks are not recent immigrants in the South though, so its not like "We were doing fine and then someone dropped tons of blacks on us".

Its not also like South Africa where that segment of the population has the political power either.

 

[Ice That Jaw]

Koreans, Central Americans, and African and Middle Eastern Muslims are the only main groups that want to come here in droves.