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Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Practical Goat, Jul 10, 2017.
I'm joining a Gracie academy next week.
They are teaching you Jiujitsu, so yeah its worth it. I think the best part about starting with a GJJ school(I have no personal experience so this is heresay) is they are teaching basic fundamental jiujitsu.
At first glance that may not seem like much, but I do know from first hand experience that a lot of bjj schools don't do that with their new students anymore. I've been to open mats at a lot of different schools in my region and I have to say I am completely shocked at how many white, blue, and purple belts flop to their backs and try to force me into advanced guards and positions because they have no idea how to let the action flow into these positions/situations naturally.
I've rolled with blue and purple belts that I knew where going to try this kind of stuff, so I flop to my back before they get a chance, or I've even tried to grab their gi and force them into dominate positions like mount/sidemount, or turtle to let them take my back and they either refuse to engage, or engage and then attempt to pull some kind of guard the moment I posture to try to reverse/escape.
Advanced positions/techniques as a general rule only work in special situations or under certain circumstances. Fundamental jiujitsu works regardless.
Everything I hear about Gjj tells me you are probably going to be drilling fundamental jiujitsu well into your purple/brown belt years in which case it will be well worth it and you'll be happy you have a solid understanding and working knowledge of Jiujitsu Overall.
This may or may not happen at a new wave sport bjj school.
Going to break this down into parts.
Are you sure they are teaching you jiu jitsu? you have no first hand experience with it....
So at open mats, people playing sport jiu jitsu with an unknown guy pulled guard? And you assume they don't know how to flow into those spots naturally? Purple belts should easily know how to get to that spot, maybe they are letting you the newb work as they figure out your skill level?
So you guard flop first instead of letting them work and then talk smack when they want to sit to guard? Neat.
What exactly is advanced positions to you? What are the certain circumstances? Fundamentals never go out of style but what's fundamental to you? Punch block series? underhook from half guard?
GJJ at school 1 is not the same as school 2, 3, or 4. What I'm getting at is you are classifying that GJJ schools are one way, and "sport/new wave" bjj schools are another. I'm not a GJJ school and I teach basic fundamental BJJ. My guys are progressing at a quick pace (3 white belts training less than 4 months beat blue belts this weekend at a small tournament). So to classify any school based on just the name Gracie or gracie CTC vs. non Gracie is just...stupid. Every instructor/school is going to be different and broad generalizations don't really help in the OP's case.
And you always need to drill fundamentals, but only drilling those until purple and brown before you start seeing some DLR/Inside DLR stuff is just flat out dumb as well.
Well it's called "Gracie Jiujitsu, so I'm going to go ahead and assume they are teaching some kind of jiujitsu techniques.
No they don't know how to flow to those positions naturally, because outside of sport BJJ, you will never accomplish anything by trying to force a "start" into these positions. There are much easier, and far less complicated techniques to attempt first before trying to force yourself into something like deep half guard, even in sport bjj.
I have 13 years of jiujitsu, wrestling, taekwondo, MT, and boxing, am ranked at brown in bjj, and am a veteran of 15 MMA fights, if that's is what qualifies as a newb to you, then I guess all those guys are just letting a newb work while they figure out my skill level.
Sarcasm aside, I have more than enough experience to know when someone is trying to get to a certain position because that's the position they want to work on, and when someone is trying to get to a position because that's the only position they feel comfortable working from.
To me an advanced position/technique, is a position that is mostly or only applicable to sport bjj, and fundamental bjj is any position/technique from bjj that can be used against someone that is trying to knock you out. This line is obviously and constantly blurred, but there is a lot of techniques used in sport bjj that you will never see in a real/limited rules fight.
As for the special circumstances. I would never advocate for someone to try to pull some DLR stuff or droping back for heelhooks in a fight, but if someone knocks you down, and is standing over you raining down blows, those DLR sweeps, or leg entanglements just might save your ass.
That isn't specific to MMA/fighting though. Like I said, natural progression. If I'm rolling with someone I don't know, why would I flop down and attempt to spider guard my way into a triangle when I can just pull full guard and work for the triangle? They aren't letting me separate those arms? Ok let me maintain that sleeve grip, slide my shin in and try to get some modified/spider guard going.
Meanwhile you got johhny blue belt over here spamming spider guard because no one showed him 1 of the 500 ways to set up a triangle from closed guard.
Next, I never said that 1 gjj school is like another, or that all sport oriented bjj schools are the same, so I'm not sure why you made that comment.
Finally, from what you said it sounds like you are coaching people to have an all around understanding of Jiujitsu, which I think is awesome, so I'm not sure why you took personal offense to my comment about a lot of sport bjj schools that go advanced technique heavy. Maybe that's not happening where you are located, but where I'm from there is a severe lack of schools teaching basic jiujitsu techniques and I think you would agree that's a big problem.
A lot of the hate Gracie Academies get is simply tribalism. Unless you live in a major metropolitan area you probably do not have a huge selection of BJJ schools. GJJ v BJJ is probably one of the least compelling reasons to choose a school. Factors like cost, proximity, style (family v fight gym), and instructor quality are more important that GJJ v BJJ.
To address the no sparring as a white belt issue. I have trained at the Gracie Academy in Torrance, at a university BJJ club, Team Tackle, and Team MAD. As a beginner, if you do not have techniques to use, being overwhelmed can cause people to panic, which in turn is why many people spazz. Obviously when people spazz they risk injuring themselves and/or their partner. By having students wait until they have completed combatives, most of the a holes quit, and people can go into rolling with a series of techniqes to use instead of flailing aimlessly. I started at my university club where we rolled on day one. There was always those guys who would snap and get angry or try to hulk their way through everything. When I transitioned to the Gracie Academy I thought it was weird that you did not spar until after combatives but after seeing it in action I feel it is the better way to go. Once you move into the master cycle, you still get crushed but I do not think I ever saw anyone spazz or hulk. You had enough experience then to know better. After the Gracie Academy I moved to Korea. At the MMA gyms it was kind of like, as Kim Dong hyun has said, Sparta. Sparring could be intense even for beginners and again you saw spazzes and guys getting angry. I had someone almost break my nose with a spinning elbow and had someone break my sternum with a throw. I was fine with it because I knew what I was getting into, but for a lot of beginners that would be the end of their martial arts experience.
Just to update anyone that cares haha. I'm still going every week to one class and one private with the purple belt instructor (he's only teaching me the combatives program before anyone starts going on about purples shouldn't be teaching.. and he got his belt from the official Gracie academy).
Learning a lot and really enjoying it. I'm starting at an official Gracie School at the end of next month and hope to keep going with it. I've done a day recently at a local MMA/BJJ place and really didn't like it, I rolled with a blue belt who just tried submitting me constantly.. I understand that's the game but at my place I get constructive feedback when I get myself into a position and the instructor positions himself in ways that I can practice what techniques I know already in a reflex type situation.
I also like the regimented drills of the Gracie combative technique. I've rolled from day one.
Glad it's working out so far. Feel free to PM me if you ever have any questions.
So is the purple belt instructor an actual gjj instructor?
No officially no. He teaches at a local MMA school but he's over qualified in teaching combatives, in my eyes at least, he's about to go for his brown belt. I understand GJJ schools usually have blue/purple teaching combatives. He doesn't try make out he is properly affiliated, hence my move to a proper academy next month.
I will say that I have never been to a Gracie Ju Jitsu gym and i don't want to pass judgement. One thing that I think its a good thing to have some elements of combative/ self defense built into the program because I think in some degree everyone wants to learn some tenants of self defense from doing BJJ and not just the sport aspect. With that being said I think the fact that some of these schools don't roll for the first few months/ first year is a way of keeping people on the hook who may not be built for Bjj. You get your first real gut check after a rolling session where you get crushed and used as a dishrag to wash the Dojo floor by a 220lb blue belt. Many people would instantly quit or become discouraged and shy away from attending classes. I have seen it happen several times in the school i attend. I think its a way to keep certain individuals on the hook and get their money a little longer until they realize maybe BJJ isn't there thing.
And if they stay for a while and then move to a sport Bjj gym, they will write a thread on how they lag behind in terms of rolling skills compare to others that rolled from day one.
It is a vicious cycle and no one really wins.
They likely to quit Bjj as well because they will not like being dominated by people that train for less or similar time because of the "combatives" phase.
I really don't get it as well. The fear of the spazzers, you can t roll because you don't know enough.
In my club. Newbies are matched up with blue and above that they roll with them
We don't allow newbies to roll against each other for safety reasons.
After a few weeks, they finally get what it is about and everyone rolls with everyone.
I really don't get the idea that they are evil blue belts bullying newbies into quitting.
That has nothing to do with training method but more with gym culture.
If you want to learn self defense then the Gracies are best for that. It depends on your instructor but if he is teaching you properly then stay where you are. If you go to a "proper" BJJ school, you are going to learn sport grappling. I think stuff like berimbolo is nonsense when it comes to self defense which is all i care about so stick with Gracie BJJ.
it really depends on the gym tbh
Did you start your class?
How is it going. Initial observations?
I make students rep our team patches.
To be honest I think it's good. The class is structured, the way the techniques are taught are very good.
The techniques themselves are the same as in any other bjj school but just because the moves you learn in combatives re self defence doesn't mean that they're any less legit.
We've even did some technical sparring.
I admittedly had serious doubts but I've got to say that I'm enjoying it so far.
You also train at a CTC?