Have the Gracies lost their authority in their own system and the world of BJJ?

[EndlessCritic]

The irony of this comment (and I am a Keenan fan) is that he has become the purple belt equivalent to today's competitive black belt scene. He can't hang with the current generation anymore competitively. He is still an amazing grappler and teacher, but is out of that competitive top group.

I'm pretty sure Keenan is probably still in the top 5% of all black belts. To call him a purple because he can't hang with the top 1% of black belts is ridiculous.

 

[maximus__]

I'm pretty sure Keenan is probably still in the top 5% of all black belts. To call him a purple because he can't hang with the top 1% of black belts is ridiculous.

Go watch the initial comment video he did when he said this about Rickson. He said it specifically about the top level competitive athletes being better than the previous generation of blackbelt. I am not calling him a purple, I am saying he is Rickson in his initial comarison compared to the current guys competing at ADCC trials and all that. It's true, we have blackbelts losing to blues and purples at the highest level in the no gi scene.

Don't get me wrong I think he is amazing, but he got rolled not that long ago in a lower level comp because he is just at a different stage in his life. I am not disrespecting him or saying he is a bad grappler. He is a high level guy and could be straight back there, but there is a reason trials has become so prestigious these days. It's a whole different game to what it was the last time Keenan competed at that level. He is the one who has said that's the case.

 

[kintana]

Go watch the initial comment video he did when he said this about Rickson. He said it specifically about the top level competitive athletes being better than the previous generation of blackbelt. I am not calling him a purple, I am saying he is Rickson in his initial comarison compared to the current guys competing at ADCC trials and all that. It's true, we have blackbelts losing to blues and purples at the highest level in the no gi scene.

Don't get me wrong I think he is amazing, but he got rolled not that long ago in a lower level comp because he is just at a different stage in his life. I am not disrespecting him or saying he is a bad grappler. He is a high level guy and could be straight back there, but there is a reason trials has become so prestigious these days. It's a whole different game to what it was the last time Keenan competed at that level. He is the one who has said that's the case.

I agree trials is at another level. I rolled with trial champions 8 years ago and I found them manageable for elite level hobbyists.

Just this past year in Singapore I rolled with Joseph Chen (light rolling) but I tell you it was another world. I can't image how hard it is now to win trials compared to 8 years ago.

 

[maximus__]

I agree trials is at another level. I rolled with trial champions 8 years ago and I found them manageable for elite level hobbyists.

Just this past year in Singapore I rolled with Joseph Chen (light rolling) but I tell you it was another world. I can't image how hard it is now to win trials compared to 8 years ago.

It's just insane the level these days. Over the next 10 years it's going to go to another level.

 

[freakroor]

Many , many top competitors and elite coaches of the past and present (John Danaher and Gordon Ryan for example) have Gracies in their lineage. The Gracie BJJ legacy will never be matched. Not to mention producing champions like Roger, Royler, and Kron..
Anyone who thinks the Gracies are suddenly irrelevant is ignorant.

 

[iwannabeadored]

That's when I went from indifference to outright fucking hate for Rener.

A fucking miserable atrocity occurs and he sees fucking dollar signs.

Fuck Rener.

what Rener did caused fights between the uncles. Rickson threatened to shit on him if he continued to sell blue belts online

 

[yetanother]

He is still an amazing grappler and teacher, but is out of that competitive top group.

Keenan won the Europeans in 2020.
IMHO mostly just grew unmotivated and lazy rather then obsolete.
If you are driving a tesla, raking in money from a big gym and dating a (single mom) model you have little motivation to grind.
He also just trains with his henchmen rather then other elite guys.

 

[maximus__]

Keenan won the Europeans in 2020.
IMHO mostly just grew unmotivated and lazy rather then obsolete.
If you are driving a tesla, raking in money from a big gym and dating a (single mom) model you have little motivation to grind.
He also just trains with his henchmen rather then other elite guys.

2020 is 4 years ago now. That's 3 Euros ago or nearly 2 ADCCs.

When he made his posts about Rickson it was when Rickson was over 15-20 years from competing and before we knew he had parkinsons disease. He was saying it about them in their prime.

I think he would have issues around straight leg locks in the current meta.

I don't disagree with the rest of it though, except he does drop in at other gyms on and off. He competed in a small no gi tournament more recently than 2020 and got taken out early. No shame in it at all. He had an awesome run for a while there and was placing in both Gi and No Gi.

 

[yetanother]

2020 is 4 years ago now. That's 3 Euros ago or nearly 2 ADCCs.

When he made his posts about Rickson it was when Rickson was over 15-20 years from competing and before we knew he had parkinsons disease. He was saying it about them in their prime.

I think he would have issues around straight leg locks in the current meta.

Prime rickson would get trashed at purple belt no gi world. Pixley would execute him.

4 years ago in the gi wasn't a huge difference. There hasn't been a technical revolution from then.

 

[maximus__]

Prime rickson would get trashed at purple belt no gi world. Pixley would execute him.

4 years ago in the gi wasn't a huge difference. There hasn't been a technical revolution from then.

He wasn't saying RIckson would lose to the top purple beltswho would beat most recreational blacks and give high level guys a run for their money. He specifically compared him to a tough purple belt which I think isn't really fair.

Plenty of the old guard have had success at the high level up until recently. Xande, Lovato etc have all just retired recently from high level competition. They still did well with their JJ and were never completely dominated due to a lack of knowledge by any average grapplers at any point.

I did specifically clarify that I was referring mostly to Keenan competing in ADCC. I think in the last 3-4 years that level of competition has rapidly increased to the point where he would struggle. It doesn't mean he isn;t an amazing grappler, he just is below that level now when he used to make the podium.

 

[Normot]

Does anyone have an "authority" over BJJ? The results are on the mat. I'm sure there are 100+ Gracie cousins/descendants/whatevers who could teach me a thing or two on the mat. There's also a few thousand non-Gracies who could teach me a thing or two. Not really sure what "authority" means in this context. No Gracie is currently the "best" competitive grappler or MMA fighter I guess but I went to a Renzo Gracie seminar a few years ago and learned some good shit.

 

[OldTimer]

They had a blue belt curriculum for a while that was possible to obtain without ever sparring and they were selling Gracie Garage affiliations and had a 16 year old Blue belt running a school at one point.

Maycee Barber?

 

[maximus__]

Maycee Barber?

Nah I think it was some kid in Canada from memory. He was rich and his parents bought him a full gym setup.

I went to a school ran by a Gracie blue blue belt for a trial class after I took some time off BJJ. It was a TMA school where the instructor was trying to diversify. No issues with the class and they let me roll straight away even though I was unranked. I was primarily a no gi grappler at this time.

The structure of the class was good and the white belt curriculum was 100% self defence orientated. We shot for takedowns and they were very against my knee ever hitting the mat when I was shooting. It's not wrong for "da street" to protect your knee, but the very act of level changing was the issue.

I left and went to a gym ran by blackbelts with wreslting instead. I eventually worked with the co owner of that gym.
They cut the Gracie affiliation because it was overpriced for every belt testing.

 

[HunterAcosta]

Go watch the initial comment video he did when he said this about Rickson. He said it specifically about the top level competitive athletes being better than the previous generation of blackbelt. I am not calling him a purple, I am saying he is Rickson in his initial comarison compared to the current guys competing at ADCC trials and all that. It's true, we have blackbelts losing to blues and purples at the highest level in the no gi scene.

Don't get me wrong I think he is amazing, but he got rolled not that long ago in a lower level comp because he is just at a different stage in his life. I am not disrespecting him or saying he is a bad grappler. He is a high level guy and could be straight back there, but there is a reason trials has become so prestigious these days. It's a whole different game to what it was the last time Keenan competed at that level. He is the one who has said that's the case.

Losing “ doesn’t mean you got” out techniqued.” I think you’re vastly overstating the “ “ META BRO” in today’s no gi game. What’s REALLY happening is athletes are getting bigger , stronger and faster and have access to 24/7 bjj internet videos and comp footage and more and more are starting four or five years old . So by 16 they’re killers. Strength , flexibility and speed are part of effective “ technique .” He’s in his 30s. The time an athlete in ANY pro sport starts declining. The Galvaos, Lovatos and Xandes are the exception not the norm. Nobody shits on an international judoka competitor in his late 30s who loses to a guy in His early 20s. Age gets us all . Ok not saying there hasn’t been advancements in no gi , particularly and mostly in wrestling up and back takes from guard passing but I doubt Keenan is THAT far behind . If anything , it’s a lack of world class training partners . And the wrestling and back takes META now isn’t some “ oh my god ! What is that ?! That’s from outer space ! “ type shit. If anything bjj guys generally suck at wresting and are spending more time on if. That’s it . Nothing magical or ground breaking . Keenan rolls 99% with his students.If he moved to B team or Atos , AOJ or New Wave and devoted full time to training like most top competitors do nowadays he’d do WAY better . Now would he be on top again ? Maybe not but it’s disingenuous to act like his mileage and lack of training partners has nothing to do with him losing. Plus most top comp guys are on Mexican supplements and god knows what else . Not knocking it but even Craig Jones admitted on being on TRT and advertises it on his podcast. It’s a HUGE advantage for recovery and for training longer and harder which equals better technique if you train smart and do more bjj than weight training, particularly in being able to get more sparring rounds in but more importantly , to be able to drill at will hours a day cause you won’t get as tired as a natty guy.

 

[maximus__]

Losing “ doesn’t mean you got” out techniqued.” I think you’re vastly overstating the “ “ META BRO” in today’s no gi game. What’s REALLY happening is athletes are getting bigger , stronger and faster and have access to 24/7 bjj internet videos and comp footage and more and more are starting four or five years old . So by 16 they’re killers. Strength , flexibility and speed are part of effective “ technique .” He’s in his 30s. The time an athlete in ANY pro sport starts declining. The Galvaos, Lovatos and Xandes are the exception not the norm. Nobody shits on an international judoka competitor in his late 30s who loses to a guy in His early 20s. Age gets us all . Ok not saying there hasn’t been advancements in no gi , particularly and mostly in wrestling up and back takes from guard passing but I doubt Keenan is THAT far behind . If anything , it’s a lack of world class training partners . And the wrestling and back takes META now isn’t some “ oh my god ! What is that ?! That’s from outer space ! “ type shit. If anything bjj guys generally suck at wresting and are spending more time on if. That’s it . Nothing magical or ground breaking . Keenan rolls 99% with his students.If he moved to B team or Atos , AOJ or New Wave and devoted full time to training like most top competitors do nowadays he’d do WAY better . Now would he be on top again ? Maybe not but it’s disingenuous to act like his mileage and lack of training partners has nothing to do with him losing. Plus most top comp guys are on Mexican supplements and god knows what else . Not knocking it but even Craig Jones admitted on being on TRT and advertises it on his podcast. It’s a HUGE advantage for recovery and for training longer and harder which equals better technique if you train smart and do more bjj than weight training, particularly in being able to get more sparring rounds in but more importantly , to be able to drill at will hours a day cause you won’t get as tired as a natty guy.

Keenan regularly rolls at other locations including with guys from B team when he travels. His school is huge and has heaps of decent guys, he said himself he has stepped away from competing on a podcast with Craig.

Craig is a saucy saucy boy. Most of the best athletes in this sport are over 30. There are some killers coming up but winning ADCC trials is nothing compared to what guys like Lovato,Cyborg etc have achieved in this sport.

 

[HunterAcosta]

Keenan regularly rolls at other locations including with guys from B team when he travels. His school is huge and has heaps of decent guys, he said himself he has stepped away from competing on a podcast with Craig.

Craig is a saucy saucy boy. Most of the best athletes in this sport are over 30. There are some killers coming up but winning ADCC trials is nothing compared to what guys like Lovato,Cyborg etc have achieved in this sport.

Regularly rolling while on vacation or doing seminars isn’t same as 24/7 access to them. I’m sure he has good guys but doesn’t have a Nicky Rod , Jones , Ryan, Nicky Ryan etc etc do train with daily . As more md more athletes get into the sport you’ll see less and less guys over 30 dominating. It’s still a fairly new sport.

 

[Human Bass]

International judo Federation defines the sport they operate as "kodokan judo" to exclude independent schools or unauthentic cult groups like Buchido-Kai or gaidojitsu. (They attempted to acquire BJJ federation a while ago into their subdivision but failed).

Kodokan judo was founded by a University of Tokyo scholar, Dr Jigoro Kano as an education system to raise youths around the world academically and physically. Kano emphasized on self-conquering and mutual growth. And if you ask any frenchy doing judo, they'll tell you half dozen of Kano quotes to explain what judo is all about.It's not about selling ass-kicking techniques for 80+ bucks an hour (muito obligado).

BJJ practitioners are always fighting against other BJJ practitioners who are supposed to be their friends. They're so concerned with tapping out others that they forget about honor, self betterment, beauty of budo and respect for the Gracie family who introduced tremendous value of something to their life. Whereas, there's no domestic conflicts in judo community because kodokan teaches them to mind their own improvement.

Kodokan teaches to forget good techniques because "muh olympic viewership"

 

[OldTimer]

Nah I think it was some kid in Canada from memory. He was rich and his parents bought him a full gym setup.

I went to a school ran by a Gracie blue blue belt for a trial class after I took some time off BJJ. It was a TMA school where the instructor was trying to diversify. No issues with the class and they let me roll straight away even though I was unranked. I was primarily a no gi grappler at this time.

The structure of the class was good and the white belt curriculum was 100% self defence orientated. We shot for takedowns and they were very against my knee ever hitting the mat when I was shooting. It's not wrong for "da street" to protect your knee, but the very act of level changing was the issue.

I left and went to a gym ran by blackbelts with wreslting instead. I eventually worked with the co owner of that gym.
They cut the Gracie affiliation because it was overpriced for every belt testing.

Ok
I remember she caught flack for teaching Gracie Combatives wearing her Karate black belt, when she was like 16
Rener had to tell her to stop

 

[maximus__]

Regularly rolling while on vacation or doing seminars isn’t same as 24/7 access to them. I’m sure he has good guys but doesn’t have a Nicky Rod , Jones , Ryan, Nicky Ryan etc etc do train with daily . As more md more athletes get into the sport you’ll see less and less guys over 30 dominating. It’s still a fairly new sport.

He has one of the biggest open mats in the Cali area every week and crosstrains all the time. He decided to focus on teaching as opposed to competing. He has had a much better career than anyone in B Team across both Gi and No gi and decided to move away from competing to build that gym.

One of Keenans coaches has a win over Nicky Rod back at the end of 2022. Nicky Rod is much more active, but Keenan has access to heaps of guys through crosstraining and in his own gym that are on that level.

He just doesn't put his training up on the internet like those guys all do. They train together all the time. He is friends with everyone at B Team still.

 

[HunterAcosta]

He has one of the biggest open mats in the Cali area every week and crosstrains all the time. He decided to focus on teaching as opposed to competing. He has had a much better career than anyone in B Team across both Gi and No gi and decided to move away from competing to build that gym.

One of Keenans coaches has a win over Nicky Rod back at the end of 2022. Nicky Rod is much more active, but Keenan has access to heaps of guys through crosstraining and in his own gym that are on that level.

He just doesn't put his training up on the internet like those guys all do. They train together all the time. He is friends with everyone at B Team still.

lol at much better career than anyone at B team bruh. Jones is a two time silver in ADCC . That is worth More than anything that Keenan’s done . Look bro just admit e a purple belt in your mind and we can end this back and forth . You’re not hearing me at all. I’ll just put you on ignore anyways .