Have the Gracies lost their authority in their own system and the world of BJJ?
- Thread starter TheMaster
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LOL!!!
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LOL!!!
I think actually the Royce-Hughes fight was one of the more damaging events longterm in them losing authority and mystique, the way he got dominated on the ground.
Royce put them on the map in the US and the global scene.
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They’re just another bunch of dudes . Young bjj people don’t care at all and they’ll have less reverence as time goes on. I mean Jay Rod doesn’t even know who Marcelo Garcia is . The days of holding up legendary figures like Kano , Helio, Funakoshi and Oyama to mythical status are dead with these youngsters. Hell if Gordon Ryan starts losing every match from now on , people will forget about him and move on to next popular person in this fast food culture.
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Keenan Cornelius, a student of American Lloyd Irvin calling Rickson & Helio "purple belt" by today's standards summarizes it all. And he's not even trying to create controversy. His mom doesn't need to rescue her wonderful son this time because his remarks didn't get himself any trouble.
In judo, this never happens because kodokan owns the sport, its history and its evolution. They don't allow non-kodokan fractions to use the name, judo or declare independence. Anyone who criticizes kodokan gets penalized or dispelled.
In judo, this never happens because kodokan owns the sport, its history and its evolution. They don't allow non-kodokan fractions to use the name, judo or declare independence. Anyone who criticizes kodokan gets penalized or dispelled.
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Is this sarcasm? It has to be, right?
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At the risk of getting baited into your BJJ/Gracie hate, I think to anyone who paid attention, Royce's last UFC fights in the 90's showed how limited he was, even if he didn't lose. Saku vs Royce in Pride 2000 GP must have been an eye opener to most who were not on the cult wagon. Royce Gracie was formidable in his first couple of UFC tournaments when nobody new something about grappling. After that he gave us to ugliest fights in MMA history. I know some people consider Saku vs Royce a classic, but to me this is vintage hipster posturing because that fight was fucking embarrassing for Royce, who ended up quitting on the stool after one hour with a scratch on his cheek.
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we see this in everything. Skateboarding, pole vaulting, sprinting and long distance running, what ever. I don’t think you can/should detract from the founders of anything just because the seeds they planted grew into something more than they themselves could achieve. That’s sort of the point.
not saying you are doing that. Just in general
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Man, come on. Sakuraba-Royce was a classic to me and that ain't know hipster posturing. I just enjoyed watching it. I mean, not everyone is entertained or moved by the same stuff. Highlander is probably my favorite movie, doesn't mean you have to love it to. One huge thing is posibly whether or not professional wrestling, catch-wrestling, the credibility of the UWF meant something to you...and whether or not you were "taken in" by Sakuraba's charisma. For example, Duran-Barkley means a lot more to people who were taken in by Duran's charisma than those who were more apathetic to him. For those of us who loved Duran, that first time he smiles at Barkley is a moment where you're going to get chills. For other people, its just a dude cracking a smile in the middle of a fight. Likewise for Sakuraba, for those of us who felt close to his journey and to the stakes, that fight had us on the edge of our seats. Though I don't think it ONLY meant something for fans who wanted to see the UWF, catch-wrestling and professional wrestling vindicate themselves or even for those deeply invested in Sakuraba at the time; I think there was just something compelling about the storyline leading into the match and the story that unfolded during the match, at least, in the eyes of a lot of people. Not everyone.
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International judo Federation defines the sport they operate as "kodokan judo" to exclude independent schools or unauthentic cult groups like Buchido-Kai or gaidojitsu. (They attempted to acquire BJJ federation a while ago into their subdivision but failed).
Kodokan judo was founded by a University of Tokyo scholar, Dr Jigoro Kano as an education system to raise youths around the world academically and physically. Kano emphasized on self-conquering and mutual growth. And if you ask any frenchy doing judo, they'll tell you half dozen of Kano quotes to explain what judo is all about.It's not about selling ass-kicking techniques for 80+ bucks an hour (muito obligado).
BJJ practitioners are always fighting against other BJJ practitioners who are supposed to be their friends. They're so concerned with tapping out others that they forget about honor, self betterment, beauty of budo and respect for the Gracie family who introduced tremendous value of something to their life. Whereas, there's no domestic conflicts in judo community because kodokan teaches them to mind their own improvement.
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I believe you may have misunderstood me. I love Saku and I believe he is a GOAT MMA Grappler candidate. I also love UFC 1-5 Royce. I also appreciate what this fight meant.
NOW, that out of the way, that fight was absolute dog shit. Remove the context and I challenge you to rewatch that shit. This is the most stalling in a fight recorded on camera and the biggest lack of action ever. Royce literally cannot strike and looked like a fucking amateur the whole time. Saku just played for time, didn't take any risk, was never in danger and knew that he could go on like this for days.
At one point when Royce was blocking Saku against the cage and nothing was happening, even the ref has enough and tried to separate them, Royce refused at the "fight" went on. What a dumpster fire that was.
Yes and no, but no more than old school american football coach talks about running the ball.
Jiu Jitsu as a sport has evolved beyond the gracies and beyond their full contact philosophy. The gracies were good in their era and have some say over the self defense aspect of BJJ.
Yet are they the best source to learn from sport BJJ the answer is no.
Jiu Jitsu as a sport has evolved beyond the gracies and beyond their full contact philosophy. The gracies were good in their era and have some say over the self defense aspect of BJJ.
Yet are they the best source to learn from sport BJJ the answer is no.
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Anyone can use the term Kodokan judo to describe what they do, even "inauthentic cult groups".
I am aware of Kano's history and his motivations for creating judo. I also believe he was very sincere in these. However, in my experience, those ones who quote Kano the most (or Bruce Lee, or Ueshiba, or Oyama, or... well, you get the point) are the ones most likely to charge $80 per hour, plus an extra 100 every couple of months for a grading. The most simple understanding and implementation of jita-kyoei is a much better thing to look for in a training partner/teacher.
Having the same hobby or profession doesn't automatically make them your friend.
I would say that the loss of respect the Gracies have suffered is entirely down to the Gracies themselves. Let us stick with Rickson as an example as the Gracies are too numerous to take as a whole and his fall from grace is one I've watched in real time. When I first joined Sherdog Rickson was near-universally loved, or at least respected. That has shifted dramatically over the last 12 years and is down to Rickson's inability to shut the fuck up; his constant bullshitting about his win record which even Helio called him out on, his trash-talking other fighters (fighters who don't have to pad their record with "wins" in the training room), his refusal to accept the fact he has lost and we have even have footage of it. I could go on. But if he had just shut up he would still be held up as the paragon of old-school BJJ as he was when I first started learning about him. I don't think I need to justify why others like Rorion and his sons get little respect
Familiarity breeds contempt, and the old guard of Gracies (and their offspring) are very familiar to us now. Gone are the days when the Gracies were the only source of information regarding their history and the creation of BJJ. Maybe we should be kind and say it was just marketing. Maybe.
Oh boy, for someone who criticised martial arts cults in this very same post, there is a lot of Kool-Aid drinking going on here. For a start, the IJF might be the most hated org on f12 surpassing even the IBJJF as the latter continues to lose relevance. But you know this story, so I will tell you one probably won't.
In 1955 Kenshiro Abbe arrived in the UK. I know two versions of Abbe's story, one is buck wild and most likely has more of a tall-tale flavour to it so I'll stick to the more boring one. Abbe was the shit; one of a handful of people to beat Kimura. He was not happy with how judo was taught so he started the British Judo Council, essentially a rival to the older British Judo Association, with some members of the latter leaving to join the BJC. This created decades of tension. My first two teachers were BJC, one was old enough to have trained with Abbe, even defecting from the BJA. Defecting though? Isn't that a bit of a strong word to use for this situation? Not by the standards of the day; to the BJA diehards the word often used to describe BJC members was dissidents! As if joining the BJC was tantamount to something you deserved to be put in a gulag for. My teacher would have to leave the BJC as the BJA would not let him advance in his competitive and high-level coaching careers if was a member of both. This isn't even going into the various dramas that happened within those orgs, various dramas in online judo spaces full of back bitting and contempt for anyone who doesn't do judo in the way they believe it should be done. I don't believe for a second that this isn't a tale that has been repeated in dozens of other countries over the 100+ years of judo's presence there. So much for no domestic conflict.
But the Kodokan is above all this, right? Yes, but not for any positive reasons; it just isn't relevant enough to really get dragged into the mud. Most judoka only really pay attention to the Kodokan as a tourist destination or the arbiter of kata.
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Gracie Barra is still very big and powerful with huge gyms in all the major cities, they also control the IBJJF
But for top competition, it's a world of smaller sized gym or big gyms with very strong competition teams. The format of being a professor, managing everything and being able to perform in top competition is pretty much over
It's kids in their physical prime that have been coached in competition teams all of their lives and that trains full time with a lot less responsabilities.
And smaller schools with a huge emphasis on competition will take the top position like AOJ, Atos, the Melqui Galvao team... B Team and New Wave are pretty much the same no gi
You can't do as good if you own a big gym with a couple of affiliates to manage, MMA classes also takes the focus out
You need a great coach that as time to mold a top athlete
But for top competition, it's a world of smaller sized gym or big gyms with very strong competition teams. The format of being a professor, managing everything and being able to perform in top competition is pretty much over
It's kids in their physical prime that have been coached in competition teams all of their lives and that trains full time with a lot less responsabilities.
And smaller schools with a huge emphasis on competition will take the top position like AOJ, Atos, the Melqui Galvao team... B Team and New Wave are pretty much the same no gi
You can't do as good if you own a big gym with a couple of affiliates to manage, MMA classes also takes the focus out
You need a great coach that as time to mold a top athlete
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Good riddance. The cult of Bruce Lee and Rickson is super silly.
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Do you know why Rorian and Rener Gracie gets so much hate? The only thing that turns me off about Rener is he lays on the 'salesman' gimmick too much.
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They are selling a watered down self defense shift BJJ version.
Also try to profit from every evil thing that happens.
Like after the rape case at Lloyd Irvins gym would claim that it was the fault of the competive environment in their academy and try to market their shit of the event.
