Crime Guy RNCed on NY subway dies.

Gutter Chris said:
While I find it unfortunate that guy died I don't really think anything criminal took place other than the failure of the state that made it even possible for these 2 to meet in the first place. If you think you are in a fight with a violent mentally ill person it seems reasonable to me that you fight him til he stops moving.

To me it's like a self defense shooting. You weren't shooting to kill you were shooting to stop the threat. It's not always fatal but sometimes it is.if it was reasonable to put the guy in a choke hold than whatever result that produced is also fine no?

Now I'll be honest with you about 2 things. One I don't know if my opinion on the situation matches with what the law says. And 2 I think mentally ill homeless people are Sketch af and due to that bias there's no way I'd convict this guy if I was on his jury and it's hard for me to see it any other way.
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No on your question about results. The thing is a rear naked choke is actually a super safe and humane way to subdue someone. There’s no way this guy knew what he was doing, unless he meant to kill the guy and seriously doubt he meant to. He probably held it way too long because he was in fight or flight mode and didn’t really know what he was doing.

I would have a huge problem with it if he just pulled a gun out and shot the guy for acting erratically. That is not a safe or humane way to end a confrontation. It’s lethal force where as a choke is not.

The action that the perp is taking has to matter for which tool you used. If the guy actually started trying to shove people in front of trains or something, then sure I would say lethal force is fine.
 
Blayt7hh said:
No on your question about results. The thing is a rear naked choke is actually a super safe and humane way to subdue someone. There’s no way this guy knew what he was doing, unless he meant to kill the guy and seriously doubt he meant to. He probably held it way too long because he was in fight or flight mode and didn’t really know what he was doing.
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Yes exactly. And if the choke was justified than the death is also justified. It doesnt matter if he new what he was doing , hes not a mma instructor hes a dude reacting to a perceived threat and in f or f which we both are in agreement about and thus why I dont think this guy should have even been charged

Blayt7hh said:
I would have a huge problem with it if he just pulled a gun out and shot the guy for acting erratically. That is not a safe or humane way to end a confrontation. It’s lethal force where as a choke is not.
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Which was my point about a defensive shooting. Im not talking about anyone having a gun here at all. Im saying that if in a self defense shooting death is an acceptable side effect of the shooting than is that also not the case with a physical altercation. A choke is still lethal its just less lethal. Im not actually talking about guns here and saying what if he had one i was making a comparison on use of force. But since we went there a gun might have prevented anyone from dying in this situation simply by being present and that seems pretty safe and humane to me .
 
Eat My Teep said:
Position is the safest way to subdue someone. Chokes are a means to incapacitate them. The problem with incapacitation is it comes with risks, so you better know what you're doing. There's a chance that with the other people helping, he may not have been aware that he was "out" or not resisting because of everyone else applying pressure / moving around. But, the nature of the choke just makes it damned dangerous if you're not in practice. I've used it a few times in the hospital setting, but with scalpel like accuracy on the appropriateness. You have to be so this doesn't happen
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Which is why I won’t be helping any of you. Too risky
 
Gutter Chris said:
Yes exactly. And if the choke was justified than the death is also justified. It doesnt matter if he new what he was doing , hes not a mma instructor hes a dude reacting to a perceived threat and in f or f which we both are in agreement about and thus why I dont think this guy should have even been charged



Which was my point about a defensive shooting. Im not talking about anyone having a gun here at all. Im saying that if in a self defense shooting death is an acceptable side effect of the shooting than is that also not the case with a physical altercation. A choke is still lethal its just less lethal. Im not actually talking about guns here and saying what if he had one i was making a comparison on use of force. But since we went there a gun might have prevented anyone from dying in this situation simply by being present and that seems pretty safe and humane to me .
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What do you mean yes exactly? That is not what I said at all. You also don't need to be an MMA instructor.

There is a difference between non-lethal force and lethal force. This situation does not require lethal force. A choke would be fine if not done by an idiot, but since he chose to intervene in a situation that didn't require any intervention at the time and killed a man in the process, yet I think he is criminally liable. Acting erratically is not enough indication that anyone's life is in mortal danger.

The only way I could see the death as excusable is if it turned out the guy had some crazy preexisting condition or something like a ton of fentanyl in his system. Something that the guy couldn't have reasonably anticipated. Note that I am not saying the death was justified.
 
Sano said:
NYC is a middling city as far as crime is concerned. Less crime than a place like Jacksonville and way less than Miami. NYC is one of the safer big cities. The narrative that it's a particularly criminal place is not factual, but it's certainly politically convenient.
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In general sure but NYC is experiencing some problems lately
With the exception of 2020, the total number of citywide shoplifting complaints has increased year over year since 2018, with the largest increase — 44 percent — taking place from 2021 to 2022. The increase in retail theft has had a particularly significant impact on retailers that are still recovering from the economic effects of the COVID-19 pandemic.
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https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-m...ams-plan-combat-retail-theft-new-york-city#/0
The Big Apple’s new year is starting off with a thud — as NYPD statistics show serious assaults surged more than 18% compared to the same period in 2022.

Rapes were also up nearly 16% and robberies and burglaries rose 9.4% and 5.5%, respectively, for an overall 3.4% increase in year-to-date major crimes, according to NYPD statistics.
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https://nypost.com/2023/01/19/nyc-starts-2023-with-over-18-increase-in-serious-assaults/

Of the 7 major felony offenses only rape is at a lower level in 2022 when compared to 2019 with grand larceny of motor vehicles being almost three times the 2019 levels. In fairness the whole country has experienced a crime wave so I doubt its unique to NYC.
 
Islam Imamate said:
In general sure but NYC is experiencing some problems lately

https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-m...ams-plan-combat-retail-theft-new-york-city#/0

https://nypost.com/2023/01/19/nyc-starts-2023-with-over-18-increase-in-serious-assaults/

Of the 7 major felony offenses only rape is at a lower level in 2022 when compared to 2019 with grand larceny of motor vehicles being almost three times the 2019 levels. In fairness the whole country has experienced a crime wave so I doubt its unique to NYC.
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Yes. A majority of the country has seen an increase in crime rates since the pandemic. NYC was hit especially hard and considering the current economic environment it isn't exactly surprising. Regardless, even with the relative increase, which is hopefully short term, it's still not particular noteworthy. I was pointing out the political motive behind constantly fearmongering about NYC, when in reality it's one of the safest big cities in the US.
 
Hog-train said:
Why does it have to be an armed person for someone to put another in a chokehold? If he's about to punch someone, that's a reasonable threat.

And it seems like you've already made up your mind based on the sparse details we have. The marine guy could have been using reasonable force but the guy had an underlying health condition so ended up dying. Or any number of things.

I live in Manhattan btw and take the train all the time. There are crazy homeless people in the city everywhere and I literally see them daily. And so do the vast majority of New Yorkers who commute on the train to work.

There have been increasing violent outbursts and attacks all the time. And the vast majority do not make the news. It's perfectly plausible this guy was unhinged and was about to attack.

A few months ago, some shopkeeper got stabbed to death literally half a block from my building. Shit like this happens all the time.
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Hog-train said:
As I explained repeatedly as well - that's not the law. Verbal threats can still justify a legal self defense response.

Seems like you choose to selectively read. I already just said I try to judge an incident based on the incident alone.

However, his previous violent record just puts the POSSIBILITY that he can be violent on the table.

And I am 100% sure his previous random violent history will come out in during the trial.

I ask you this: Why do you think the other two men helping to hold him down haven't also been charged?
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There’s a difference between defending yourself and defending yourself with deadly force. A choke is deadly force as we all know.
 
nostradumbass said:
Otherwise known as a pro crime shithole.

Lol at "duty to retreat" from a dude who punched your gf.
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States with stand your ground have seen more shootings since that law was put in effect.
 
emefer said:
States with stand your ground have seen more shootings since that law was put in effect.
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When you're allowed to shoot someone in self defense, there are more self defense shootings? That's not exactly breaking news.
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66038096

_130231138_penny2.jpg.webp


A former US Marine who placed a homeless man in a fatal chokehold on a New York City subway train has pleaded not guilty to criminal charges.

Daniel Penny, 24, was indicted in court on Wednesday on counts of second-degree manslaughter and negligent homicide.

Mr Penny faces up to 15 years in prison if convicted of the manslaughter charge. He was arrested on 12 May and released on $100,000 (£80,000) in bail.

His lawyers said he could not have known his actions to subdue Mr Neely, a homeless street performer with a history of mental illness, would lead to his death.

Mr Penny has said he was acting in self-defence in the incident on a northbound F train subway car in Manhattan.

The defendant was ordered to return to court on 25 October for a pre-trial hearing.
 
Two tiered justice system? Very similar cases back to back and one has charges dropped, other not. Thoughts on this latest development? And yes the second case, the stabbing was indeed merged into this thread cause libs big mad so many headlines make NYC look bad, and couldn’t handle the multiple stories at once lmao <45>.

 
cottagecheesefan said:
Two tiered justice system? Very similar cases back to back and one has charges dropped, other not. Thoughts on this latest development? And yes the second case, the stabbing was indeed merged into this thread cause libs big mad so many headlines make NYC look bad, and couldn’t handle the multiple stories at once lmao <45>.

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Not very similar at all.
 
650lb Sumo said:
His lawyers said he could not have known his actions to subdue Mr Neely, a homeless street performer with a history of mental illness, would lead to his death.
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What is it they're arguing here? That he didn't know choking someone could kill them?
Or are they trying to say something to the effect of "He thought he was choking him without as much squeeze, or giving him chance to breathe etc"

Just trying to understand the angle. There must surely be more to it than just that, because it sounds fucking retarded if there isn't.
 
legatoblues said:
What is it they're arguing here? That he didn't know choking someone could kill them?
Or are they trying to say something to the effect of "He thought he was choking him without as much squeeze, or giving him chance to breathe etc"

Just trying to understand the angle. There must surely be more to it than just that, because it sounds fucking retarded if there isn't.
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That he’s too stupid to know choking someone leads to death?
 
legatoblues said:
What is it they're arguing here? That he didn't know choking someone could kill them?
Or are they trying to say something to the effect of "He thought he was choking him without as much squeeze, or giving him chance to breathe etc"

Just trying to understand the angle. There must surely be more to it than just that, because it sounds fucking retarded if there isn't.
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from what I saw this week, as he just plead not guilty. He felt he and other in danger we, this person clearly suicidal if not homicidal. And his own words indicate homicidal in hopes to be locked up. So he and others are danger after a wrestle (just like the other case with a knife which might be illegal in the city with the other case despite being stopped)

and subdued the person the the best of his knowledge

here is the release today and even tho foxnews (bias) just look at the quotes.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-marin...manslaughter-chokehold-death-jordan-neely.amp
 
Blayt7hh said:
It’s actually fine to use a choke. You just can’t hold it for minutes.

Chokes are probably the single best way to subdue someone without hurting them.
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That’s why I said choking someone.
Choking someone I believe is classified as deadly force.
You can’t use deadly force in defense unless deadly force is being used or that you believe deadly force is imminent.
The state must prove it’s unreasonable use of deadly force.
 
cottagecheesefan said:
from what I saw this week, as he just plead not guilty. He felt he and other in danger we, this person clearly suicidal if not homicidal. And his own words indicate homicidal in hopes to be locked up. So he and others are danger after a wrestle (just like the other case with a knife which might be illegal in the city with the other case despite being stopped)

and subdued the person the the best of his knowledge

here is the release today and even tho foxnews (bias) just look at the quotes.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-marin...manslaughter-chokehold-death-jordan-neely.amp
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ebitda ebitda that's all folks

From now on I’m gonna have the voice of porky pig in my head when I read your posts.
 
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