Fury's 2 biggest wins since the pitter patter win against a 40yo Wlad have aged horribly, his farce is almost over

[Jonny Ninja]

It isn't just Francis; I'm old enough to have watched Ali and co in the 70s and Tyson, Lewis, etc. in the 80-90s. I'm just not that impressed by what I see in the fights these days; I don't see them doing well against the older fighters.

That's fair what you are saying though, the upcoming fight will tell a big story.

I’m not quite old enough to remember the 70s HWs but certainly the 80s and 90s. You’ve got 2 of the very best HW eras in that time frame, this generation isn’t up to it. But usyk is special. And there are a lot of good HW fighters around today, just a lack of great ones

The real problem in the division and generation is the reluctance of some fighters to fight other contenders. Not all of them but definitely 2 or 3 of the more prominent fighters in the last few years have some that and tried to spin it the other way. That is a bigger problem for boxing as a whole, and what really frustrates me as a fan.

 

[Levi_]

I’m not quite old enough to remember the 70s HWs but certainly the 80s and 90s. You’ve got 2 of the very best HW eras in that time frame, this generation isn’t up to it. But usyk is special. And there are a lot of good HW fighters around today, just a lack of great ones

The real problem in the division and generation is the reluctance of some fighters to fight other contenders. Not all of them but definitely 2 or 3 of the more prominent fighters in the last few years have some that and tried to spin it the other way. That is a bigger problem for boxing as a whole, and what really frustrates me as a fan.

Exactly, they are good but not great with the exception of Crawford; he looks like he might achieve greatness.

That mid 70s into the eighties time was amazing. I saw the later career of Ali and prime Holmes.

Sugar Ray came on in the late 70s which was awesome; that whole period is unsurpassed in the MW-WW range with Duran, Hagler, Benitez, Hearns, etc. as I'm sure you know.

 

[ferrisjso]

I mean if the sport was evolving to cater to more Lewis sized and skilled boxers Usyk likely wouldn't be able to hang with them. Holy didnt have to contend with an entire era of giants.

Usyk is in an ideal market in which the shortcomings due to his weight are being compensated by the short comings of others around him. It's fine I guess, if this is his his era and that's what he has to do he can't be critised for it. He is a great fighter in an era of good fighters who aren't finely tuned so no one can really outbox him yet. P4P a more well rounded big fighter with strong boxing iq should be too much foor him.

Lewis is generally regarded as the best post 70s HW. Saying someone would be exposed against Lewis isn't saying much. If you expected Usyk to beat Lewis hes pretty much in the GOAT convo.

Guys are bigger today on average but 6 ft 3 with 78 inch reach is not a "natural CW". In the past that'd be considered large for HW and now it's just a bit below average. If you look at the top HWs they are mostly 6 ft 4 or 6 ft 5. This is only a small disadvantage with guys being substantially larger like Fury and Wilder being outliers. Usyk is not small for HW hes just not big. While HWs smaller than him are rare(Parker and Ruiz) most HWs are just a little bigger than him. Hes not Frazier or Tyson.

 

[iwannabeadored]

Tony bellew is the same height and roughly the same build as usyk. Fought at HW at a higher weight than usyk but fought the vast majority of his career at LHW. Does that make him a HW that cut to LHW??

6-3 and 220 was a heavyweight in every single era dating back to the 1800s. These are facts. Stop crying about them being small

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Lewis is generally regarded as the best post 70s HW. Saying someone would be exposed against Lewis isn't saying much. If you expected Usyk to beat Lewis hes pretty much in the GOAT convo.

Guys are bigger today on average but 6 ft 3 with 78 inch reach is not a "natural CW". In the past that'd be considered large for HW and now it's just a bit below average. If you look at the top HWs they are mostly 6 ft 4 or 6 ft 5. This is only a small disadvantage with guys being substantially larger like Fury and Wilder being outliers. Usyk is not small for HW hes just not big. While HWs smaller than him are rare(Parker and Ruiz) most HWs are just a little bigger than him. Hes not Frazier or Tyson.

Usyk is absolutely a natural cruiserweight. He had to bulk for a long time just to put on the mass to even be competitive at heavyweight. The guy used to box at 165 lbs in the amateurs. Guys like Wilder were rail thin back then but the lowest he ever boxed at in the ams was 200 lbs. Parker is noticeably bigger than Usyk. What I mean by "natural" is that they're more suited at a particular weight, in this case, cruiserweight. That's why Usyk looked his best there physically and he performed his best there.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

6-3 and 220 was a heavyweight in every single era dating back to the 1800s. These are facts. Stop crying about them being small

Is Canelo a light heavyweight? No. He's a natural middleweight. How can we be certain? That's simple. At SMW and LHW Canelo has always been the smaller man. All of his opponents were bigger. Even John Ryder. What Canelo did was bulk up in order to compete above his optimal weight class. The same way Usyk had to in order to be competitive at heavyweight.

How many of Usyk's opponents at heavyweight have been the same size or smaller than him? Zero. He's always been the smaller man. Even after Usyk bulked up he's still giving up lots of weight. Chisora was 38 lbs heavier when they fought. Witherspoon was 27 lbs heavier. Joshua was 23 lbs heavier. You couldn't even see Usyk behind Joshua when they tied-up. Every time they'd clinch Joshua's entire body would hide him in the ring. It'll be even more obvious against Fury where he'll be giving up 40-50 lbs.

 

[ferrisjso]

Usyk is absolutely a natural cruiserweight. He had to bulk for a long time just to put on the mass to even be competitive at heavyweight. The guy used to box at 165 lbs in the amateurs. Guys like Wilder were rail thin back then but the lowest he ever boxed at in the ams was 200 lbs. Parker is noticeably bigger than Usyk. What I mean by "natural" is that they're more suited at a particular weight, in this case, cruiserweight. That's why Usyk looked his best there physically and he performed his best there.

If anything I'd think HW would be more suitable for a point fighter like Usyk because larger fighters are going to be somewhat less mobile. The reason HW is usually harder for fighters coming up from CW(or before that LHW)is because in boxing the best fighters who can make HW are going to be HWs because it is the glamor division. That difference seems like it(usually) is bigger than the size. Did Holyfield struggle against Lewis and Bowe because they were bigger or because they were better?(its not rhetorical it could be a mixture of both) In any case thus far I think Usyk has been more of a Tunney and less of a Holyfield.

So is Ruiz but thats because they put more weight on a smaller frame(theyve got smaller reachs too). Usyk could bulk up more than Parker.

 

[ferrisjso]

Is Canelo a light heavyweight? No. He's a natural middleweight. How can we be certain? That's simple. At SMW and LHW Canelo has always been the smaller man. All of his opponents were bigger. Even John Ryder. What Canelo did was bulk up in order to compete above his optimal weight class. The same way Usyk had to in order to be competitive at heavyweight.

How many of Usyk's opponents at heavyweight have been the same size or smaller than him? Zero. He's always been the smaller man. Even after Usyk bulked up he's still giving up lots of weight. Chisora was 38 lbs heavier when they fought. Witherspoon was 27 lbs heavier. Joshua was 23 lbs heavier. You couldn't even see Usyk behind Joshua when they tied-up. Every time they'd clinch Joshua's entire body would hide him in the ring. It'll be even more obvious against Fury where he'll be giving up 40-50 lbs.

Chisora is 6 ft 2 with a 4 inch shorter reach than Usyk.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Chisora is 6 ft 2 with a 4 inch shorter reach than Usyk.

Chisora is slightly shorter in height and has a reach disadvantage but he's a noticeably bigger man. His larger frame is suited for heavyweight. That's why he's been a career long heavy. Usyk made his pro debut at cruiserweight. If he was a heavyweight all along then he'd have debuted there instead. That's where all the money and fame is.

The size difference between them is obvious. Look at the breadth of Chisora's shoulders compared to Usyk's. He's just the naturally bigger man overall and was almost 40 lbs heavier in there.

 

[ferrisjso]

Chisora is slightly shorter in height and has a reach disadvantage but he's a noticeably bigger man. His larger frame is suited for heavyweight. That's why he's been a career long heavy. Usyk made his pro debut at cruiserweight. If he was a heavyweight all along then he'd have debuted there instead. That's where all the money and fame is.

The size difference between them is obvious. Look at the breadth of Chisora's shoulders compared to Usyk's. He's just the naturally bigger man overall and was almost 40 lbs heavier in there.

Many HW champs and contenders debut in other weight classes.Marciano, Frazier and Tyson the 3 smallest HW champs of the past century all started at HW.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Many HW champs and contenders debut in other weight classes.Marciano, Frazier and Tyson the 3 smallest HW champs of the past century all started at HW.

Marciano and Frazier had no choice. Cruiser wasn't even around as an option when they both debuted. It was an option for Mike but the division was brand new then. It'd only been around for 5 years or so. More importantly back then heavyweights were smaller so it wasn't as big of a deal. Today's heavyweights are much bigger on average. Around the 90s into the early 2000s we saw these giants coming around more often.

Usyk would've been a nice sized heavyweight in Ali's day, back in the 60s/70s, but that's no longer the case. The WBC and WBA have introduced a bridgerweight/super cruiserweight division (224 lbs) in order to help bridge the gap between cruiser & heavyweight. They recognize just how big the jump is which is why they're trying to address it.

 

[TheGreatA]

Marciano and Frazier had no choice. Cruiser wasn't even around as an option when they both debuted. It was an option for Mike but the division was brand new then. It'd only been around for 5 years or so. More importantly back then heavyweights were smaller so it wasn't as big of a deal. Today's heavyweights are much bigger on average. Around the 90s into the early 2000s we saw these giants coming around more often.

Usyk would've been a nice sized heavyweight in Ali's day, back in the 60s/70s, but that's no longer the case. The WBC and WBA have introduced a bridgerweight/super cruiserweight division (224 lbs) in order to help bridge the gap between cruiser & heavyweight. They recognize just how big the jump is which is why they're trying to address it.

It's probably mainly about them wanting to cash in by having more title belts.

Anyone who's around 220 pounds can win at heavyweight. The bigger you are, the more cumbersome you get. Big guys like Fury used to be laughing stocks, him and Vitali are really the first boxers of that size to make an impact. The slightly smaller Lewis, Wladimir, Joshua, Bowe seem to have become the standard (around 6'5, 240-250). Smaller guys like Usyk still have the advantage in speed and agility.

Usyk is the Holyfield of this era, he's not a true natural at that weight but he has the skills and the tenacity to compete.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

It's probably mainly about them wanting to cash in by having more title belts.

Anyone who's around 220 pounds can win at heavyweight. The bigger you are, the more cumbersome you get. Big guys like Fury used to be laughing stocks, him and Vitali are really the first boxers of that size to make an impact.

Usyk is the Holyfield of this era, he's not a true natural at that weight but he has the skills and the tenacity to compete.

I agree with your post but not the first part. If these sanctioning bodies mostly wanted to cash in more then all they'd have to do is just create more titles in existing recognized divisions. Additional secondary titles, or interim, and so on. Creating a new division mainly to collect more sanctioning fees would be overkill.

 

[TheGreatA]

I agree with your post but not the first part. If these sanctioning bodies mostly wanted to cash in more then all they'd have to do is just create more titles in existing recognized divisions. Additional secondary titles, or interim, and so on. Creating a new division mainly to collect more sanctioning fees would be overkill.

They're already doing that though with all the ridiculous trinkets they're handing out. Might as well create an entire new division while at it.

That weight division is only ever going to serve as a stepping stone for some guy who's on the smaller side as a HW. Inevitably they'll drink a few beers and challenge for the real heavyweight belt.

We used to see these sorts of size mismatches even back in the early 1900s with Jess Willard and Primo Carnera, but the weight limit has never changed. Wilder reigned for years at what, 215 pounds? Should he have competed in another division even though we know he can lay anybody out if he lands a punch?

The way I've always seen it is that if you're a man with a frame that can carry around 100 kilos, or around 220 lbs, you can beat anybody, even the big circus freaks. We've seen it time and time again. Anyone smaller than that may struggle greatly, but Usyk is right around that "Muhammed Ali" size where he can pull it off, as we already saw against arguably the most credible HW out there, twice.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

They're already doing that though with all the ridiculous trinkets they're handing out. Might as well create an entire new division while at it.

That weight division is only ever going to serve as a stepping stone for some guy who's on the smaller side as a HW. Inevitably they'll drink a few beers and challenge for the real heavyweight belt.

We used to see these sorts of size mismatches even back in the early 1900s with Jess Willard and Primo Carnera, but the weight limit has never changed. Wilder reigned for years at what, 215 pounds? Should he have competed in another division even though we know he can lay anybody out if he lands a punch?

Creating a new division is quite an undertaking. They have to convince people to care about it and gain the recognition of all the other sanctioning bodies. It could take a while. Wilder did reign at around 215/220 pounds or so, somewhere near that, but look at his title reign. He has plenty of consecutive WBC title defenses but it was against lower level opposition. Fury absolutely bullied him so bad that he felt the need to bulk up like 30 pounds.

If Wilder could make cruiserweight when he made his pro debut then sure. He probably should've started there. However, he may've not been able to perform at that weight. Nobody really wants to fight at cruiser anyway. It's a tweener division and there's less money involved. It's one of the least celebrated divisions in boxing.

 

[TheGreatA]

Creating a new division is quite an undertaking. They have to convince people to care about it and gain the recognition of all the other sanctioning bodies. It could take a while. Wilder did reign at around 215/220 pounds or so, somewhere near that, but look at his title reign. He has plenty of consecutive WBC title defenses but it was against lower level opposition. Fury absolutely bullied him so bad that he felt the need to bulk up like 30 pounds.

If Wilder could make cruiserweight when he made his pro debut then sure. He probably should've started there. However, he may've not been able to perform at that weight. Nobody really wants to fight at cruiser anyway. It's a tweener division and there's less money involved. It's one of the least celebrated divisions in boxing.

Wilder got bullied because he has no skill, to be honest. He's a 210 pound guy who has limited skills and agility, who comes off as rather uncoordinated. It would be a different matter with Usyk who's not going to just willingly back up into the ropes to get pummeled while looking for one big shot to bail him out.

I doubt the new division will be any more successful than the cruiserweight division. Honestly it feels like an insult to all the guys who've been successful at competing at around 225 pounds. Do we really think that an Ali, or a Tyson, would've needed such a division?

To me, there are two "golden" standards for heavyweights, physically. The 6'3, 220 pound frame that Ali had, with superior speed and agility, and then the 6'5, 245 pound frame of Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko had, with increased power and strength, without sacrificing too much speed for size. The latter has obviously come to be favoured, with time, as it is easier to just overpower guys instead of beating them with skill.

I don't believe that Fury will ever become a new standard for heavyweights to pattern themselves after, I think he's simply a freak who's blessed with much greater speed and coordination than most men of his size ever could possess. Most guys like that will simply come off as clumsy oafs and be easily outboxed by smaller heavies. Even Fury is starting to get a little oafish by this point as he neglects his training, the Ngannou fight was not a good look for him. Somehow I struggle to see Usyk or Joshua give the same performance.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Wilder got bullied because he has no skill, to be honest. He's a 210 pound guy who has limited skills and agility, who comes off as rather uncoordinated. It would be a different matter with Usyk who's not going to just willingly back up into the ropes to get pummeled while looking for one big shot to bail him out.

I doubt the new division will be any more successful than the cruiserweight division. Honestly it feels like an insult to all the guys who've been successful at competing at around 225 pounds. Do we really think that an Ali, or a Tyson, would've needed such a division?

To me, there are two "golden" standards for heavyweights, physically. The 6'3, 220 pound frame that Ali had, with superior speed and agility, and then the 6'5, 245 pound frame of Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko had, with increased power and strength, without sacrificing too much speed for size. The latter has obviously come to be favoured, with time, as it is easier to just overpower guys instead of beating them with skill.

I don't believe that Fury will ever become a new standard for heavyweights to pattern themselves after, I think he's simply a freak who's blessed with much greater speed and coordination than most men of his size ever could possess. Most guys like that will simply come off as clumsy oafs and be easily outboxed by smaller heavies. Even Fury is starting to get a little oafish by this point as he neglects his training, the Ngannou fight was not a good look for him. Somehow I struggle to see Usyk or Joshua give the same performance.

Wilder got bullied not just because of his lack of skill but because he's not that physical in the first place.

Usyk has dealt with being undersized better because he's physically strong in the clinch on top of being worlds more skilled than Wilder. But, even he once struggled against Chisora in their fight. He held his feet too much when he should've been boxing and moving the whole fight. Chisora had around 40 lbs on him and he was fairly successful at throwing it around. He'd just charge forward like a bull, leading with his head, and got very rough in there. Low blows and elbows included. The ref allowed it but that's not surprising. It was in his backyard. Since that fight Usyk has done a better job managing distance and knowing when to move out of the way. He also put on a few more pounds.

I don't know how successful bridger/super cruiser will be but it'll likely be a while before any of the big names fight there. Right now there's no incentive for them to. It's a brand new division that's only recognized by half of the sanctioning bodies.

 

[deucesarewild]

It isn't his physical gifts that diminished overnight. His timing just wasn't there. He couldn't find it on his straight right hand. I've been one of the few regs here that defends Wilder nowadays. But, I refuse to defend him this time. He just lost to the better man on the night.

Lots of fighters have to fight under circumstances that aren't ideal. Usyk going to war and then coming back while only fighting once a year, AJ losing twice consecutively and then changing trainers like they're underwear, Fury nearly losing his daughter before the 3rd Wilder fight, etc. It is what it is.

It's less timing than the big puncher getting faces by someone who beat him and stole some of the fear surrounding him. Wilder steps behind nearly every right hand he throws. He fights by stepping to his opponent. Parker, like Fuey before him, found out that preventing him from stepping is hoe to neutralize a good deal of his lethality. So, footwork and distance > timing in this case.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

It's less timing than the big puncher getting faces by someone who beat him and stole some of the fear surrounding him. Wilder steps behind nearly every right hand he throws. He fights by stepping to his opponent. Parker, like Fuey before him, found out that preventing him from stepping is hoe to neutralize a good deal of his lethality. So, footwork and distance > timing in this case.

Yeah we know that Wilder likes to shoot his straight right hand leads off the step. That's one of his tendencies. When he's on the front foot most of the time that's what he does. When he knocked Ortiz out in their rematch he didn't though. Against Helenius he did the opposite, drew him in, and then clipped him with a short counter right hand.

Denying Wilder the space to operate (set up) and putting him on his heels often is how you beat him. Obviously you still have to be careful doing it though as Helenius quickly found out. He got reckless and rushed in. Paid for it dearly. So did Fury in the 3rd Wilder fight. He walked into a big right hand and got dropped.

 

[Deaths Head]

Uh, I think Joshua losing and rematching over 4 fights had just as much to do with the division stalling than the Fury/Wilder's 3 fights.

Stalling what ? You realize he doesn’t fight Ruiz if Wilder signs the contract right ? You realize he fights Fury if he actually attempted to give Wilder step aside money as well ?

Are you really telling me that Joshua rematched 4 times which is fake news when Fury is the rematch king and that fighting Wilder for 3 years with fights in between them no one wanted are the same as Joshua’s 2 rematches while not stalling anything ?

When Joshua defeated Ruiz it was Wilder going back on his word that he’d fight the winner and he had a meltdown on social media making up lame excuses why he wouldn’t take the fight but somehow it’s always Hearn and Joshua’s fault . But we’ll pretend that didn’t happen either as it’s easier not to think rationally and just include Joshua as a reason for fights not taking place . <45>