Freedom vs Fascism is the real battle, not muslims vs the west.

[seiger]

I think the right wing have the wrong idea. This isnt about muslims vs patriots or the west. This isnt about liberals or left vs conservative. this is about freedom vs fascism.

fascism is far more dangerous the muslims.



5.30

fascism in the west is far more dangerous than islamofascism, although they are really the same beast, with a different head.

the fact is there simply isnt enough muslims, never mind fascist / militant muslims for it to be anywhere near as big an issue as fascism and right wing hate groups.

the islamophobes have a play book the goes, muslims invade the west, and convert it to shariah law, by breeding in numbers that support this and inflicting terrorism.

the numbers dont support it. the idea that muslims are organised to this end is ridiculous. and the basic institutional structure of the west doesnt support this.

the real play book is the far right scapegoat muslims the same way they did jews back in the day, to create a right wing populism that sweeps liberties out of the way, in a holy crusade against a minority that winds up with you losing more freedoms than the minority could ever hope to take even if it was endemically evil, which it is not.

freedom of religion is not a luxury, it is a prerequisite.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

UN Declaration of Human Rights

Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

US Constitution

you can take your pick, the us constitution, to the un declaration for human rights, all enshrine freedom of religion as one of the basic principles of freedom.

now it can be argued that the muslim version of the declaration of human rights, illustrates how different islamic societies are. its view of basic human dignity, and shariah, clashes with some of the concepts of human rights as we have them. this is a valid point. until the day islamic nations sign the declaration of human rights or embrace pluralism, i dont think we can argue that they are reading from the same page.

some believe human rights are a fruit of the tree of judeo christian values. i disagree. many who are not from that tree have signed. many, like china, and russia dont seem to respect freedom.

either way, our difference with islamic societies does not justify creating conditions where we join them. the whole argument of right wing fascists is that we need to avoid islamafication of our societies, when the reality is that fascism is exactly what they will deliver, in the guise of saving us.

it is very clear that in the west we believe in pluralism, freedom of religion and the secular society. muslims are not a threat to that, on a fundamental level. fascism threatens all those things intrinsically.

this is the real battle we are witnessing.

monocultural, bigoted, one way thinking right wingers dont seem to grasp that concept.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Say what you like about the Nazis, but no woman ever fantasized about being tied to a bed and raped by a guy dressed as a Liberal.
- P J O' Rourke

 

[seiger]

Say what you like about the Nazis, but no woman ever fantasized about being tied to a bed and raped by a guy dressed as a Liberal.
- P J O' Rourke

the guys that won world war 2 were liberals. and dont you ever forget it.

 

[KnightTemplar]

the guys that won world war 2 were liberals. and dont you ever forget it.

I've heard Stalin called many things, but Liberal is a new one on me<45>

 

[seiger]

I've heard Stalin called many things, but Liberal is a new one on me<45>

commies were also instrumental, that is correct. im damn sure they were fighting not to be slaves to germany though.

 

[WhitebeltXL]

"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless."

"All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword."

- George Orwell, "What is Facism?", 1944

 

[kickboxjh]

 

[seiger]

"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless."

"All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword."

- George Orwell, "What is Facism?", 1944

Its not meaningless. We have a US president who stood on a platform that attacked a religion.

Its wake up and smell the coffee time. If you believe in freedom of belief, then you are a liberal in this argument. If you do not believe in freedom of belief, then you are a fascist.

I am not muslim, nor do i have plans to be. I see no argument that justifies compromising my freedom of belief, or attacking normal average people based on their religion.

This is literally thought police stuff. Orwell would have spat in trumps face.

 

[VivaRevolution]

An example of what the op is referring to........

________________________________________________________________________

Memo: New York Called For Face Recognition Cameras At Bridges, Tunnels
Proposal obtained by Vocativ asks for surveillance at nine NYC 'crossing points'

Photo Illustration: Vocativ
By Kevin Collier
Jan 27, 2017 at 9:27 AM ET
The state of New York has privately asked surveillance companies to pitch a vast camera system that would scan and identify people who drive in and out of New York City, according to a December memo obtained by Vocativ.

The call for private companies to submit plans is part of Governor Andrew Cuomo’s major infrastructure package, which he introduced in October. Though much of the related proposals would be indisputably welcome to most New Yorkers — renovating airports and improving public transportation — a little-noticed detail included installing cameras to “test emerging facial recognition software and equipment.”

“This is a highly advanced system they’re asking for,” said Clare Garvie, an associate at Georgetown University’s Center for Privacy and Technology, and who specializes in police use of face recognition technologies. “This is going to be terabytes — if not petabytes — of data, and multiple cameras running 24 hours a day. In order to be face recognition compliant they probably have to be pretty high definition.”

Cuomo’s office didn’t respond to multiple requests for clarification in the ensuing weeks after his announcement. But a memo from the Metropolitan Transit Authority’s Bridges and Tunnels division, obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request, shows that on December 12, the MTA put out a call to an unknown group of private vendors of surveillance equipment. The proposed system would both scan drivers as they approached or crossed most of the city’s bridges and tunnels at high speeds, and would also capture and pair those photos with the license plates of their cars.

“The biggest risk that comes with a system like this is its ability to track people, by location, by their face,” Garvie said. “So what needs to be put in place is a prohibition on the use of these cameras and the technology as a location tracking tool.”

The proposed system would be massive, the memo reads:

The Authority is interested in implementing a Facial Detection System, in a free-flow highway environment, where vehicle movement is unimpeded at highway speeds as well as bumper-to-bumper traffic, and license plate images are taken and matched to occupants of the vehicles (via license plate number) with Facial Detection and Recognition methods from a gantry-based or road-side monitoring location.

http://www.vocativ.com/396745/memo-new-york-called-for-face-recognition-cameras-at-bridges-tunnels/

_________________________________________________________________________________

This isn't about Muslims, or left vs right. This is about the destruction of liberty.

 

[seiger]

An example of what the op is referring to........

________________________________________________________________________

Memo: New York Called For Face Recognition Cameras At Bridges, Tunnels
Proposal obtained by Vocativ asks for surveillance at nine NYC 'crossing points'

Photo Illustration: Vocativ
By Kevin Collier
Jan 27, 2017 at 9:27 AM ET
The state of New York has privately asked surveillance companies to pitch a vast camera system that would scan and identify people who drive in and out of New York City, according to a December memo obtained by Vocativ.

The call for private companies to submit plans is part of Governor Andrew Cuomo’s major infrastructure package, which he introduced in October. Though much of the related proposals would be indisputably welcome to most New Yorkers — renovating airports and improving public transportation — a little-noticed detail included installing cameras to “test emerging facial recognition software and equipment.”

“This is a highly advanced system they’re asking for,” said Clare Garvie, an associate at Georgetown University’s Center for Privacy and Technology, and who specializes in police use of face recognition technologies. “This is going to be terabytes — if not petabytes — of data, and multiple cameras running 24 hours a day. In order to be face recognition compliant they probably have to be pretty high definition.”

Cuomo’s office didn’t respond to multiple requests for clarification in the ensuing weeks after his announcement. But a memo from the Metropolitan Transit Authority’s Bridges and Tunnels division, obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request, shows that on December 12, the MTA put out a call to an unknown group of private vendors of surveillance equipment. The proposed system would both scan drivers as they approached or crossed most of the city’s bridges and tunnels at high speeds, and would also capture and pair those photos with the license plates of their cars.

“The biggest risk that comes with a system like this is its ability to track people, by location, by their face,” Garvie said. “So what needs to be put in place is a prohibition on the use of these cameras and the technology as a location tracking tool.”

The proposed system would be massive, the memo reads:

The Authority is interested in implementing a Facial Detection System, in a free-flow highway environment, where vehicle movement is unimpeded at highway speeds as well as bumper-to-bumper traffic, and license plate images are taken and matched to occupants of the vehicles (via license plate number) with Facial Detection and Recognition methods from a gantry-based or road-side monitoring location.

http://www.vocativ.com/396745/memo-new-york-called-for-face-recognition-cameras-at-bridges-tunnels/

_________________________________________________________________________________

This isn't about Muslims, or left vs right. This is about the destruction of liberty.

This isn't about Muslims, or left vs right. This is about the destruction of liberty.

Amen brother.

And for that matter, christianity itself is underpinned by the concept of free will.

All you right wing christians, are fucking charlatans.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Its not meaningless. We have a US president who stood on a platform that attacked a religion.

Its wake up and smell the coffee time. If you believe in freedom of belief, then you are a liberal in this argument. If you do not believe in freedom of belief, then you are a fascist.

I am not muslim, nor do i have plans to be. I see no argument that justifies compromising my freedom of belief, or attacking normal average people based on their religion.

This is literally thought police stuff. Orwell would have spat in trumps face.

We also just had a president who told bold faced lies over and over about the NSA, while conducting covert CIA wars across the globe on unprecedented scale.

Let's not pretend that Trump's in your face demagoguery is somehow inferior to Obama's imperialism.

This is why Clinton lost. You can only lie through your teeth for so long, before you make Trump look legitimate in comparison.

 

[seiger]

We also just had a president who told bold faced lies over and over about the NSA, while conducting covert CIA wars across the globe on unprecedented scale.

Let's not pretend that Trump's in your face demagoguery is somehow inferior to Obama's imperialism.

This is why Clinton lost. You can only lie through your teeth for so long, before you make Trump look legitimate in comparison.

i think its important that right and left both recognise, that despite the superficial differences in how people think, everyone should believe in a free america, and fascism in all its guises threatens that far more than muslims do.

it all comes down to one simple question - do you believe in freedom of thought and religion?

and im not talking about muslims, but do you, yourself believe in it? because if you do, then you need to wake the fuck up, as our freedoms are not normal, they have been fought for and died for, and we can not compromise them for anyone.

 

[WhitebeltXL]

Its not meaningless. We have a US president who stood on a platform that attacked a religion.

Its wake up and smell the coffee time. If you believe in freedom of belief, then you are a liberal in this argument. If you do not believe in freedom of belief, then you are a fascist.

I don't see what Donald Trump represents that is in common with historical fascism, and it's dishonest to make the comparison.

Who destroyed Privacy in the U.K.? The left wing Labour Party in the U.K. has more in common with Fascism than Trump (they started the mass surveillance authoritarian state and told us that it was for "our protection", now we're the most surveilled state in the world.)

And it's endless denigration of certain people using buzzwords that has led to the word Fascism to be reduced to a word that Lefties use for people they don't agree with (similar to Nazi, Racist etc.,), hence it is meaningless.

Even Bernito Mussolini, who founded the national fascist party, stated that Facism doesn't have a set place in the left-right political spectrum.

I'd say a lot of what you'd call "Liberals" today I'd call "Progressive Socialists" and their doctrine is far more damaging to the world than anything Donald Trump represents, and is more in line with the Fascism of the early 20th century.

 

[seiger]

I don't see what Donald Trump represents that is in common with historical fascism, and it's dishonest to make the comparison.

Who destroyed Privacy in the U.K.? The left wing Labour Party in the U.K. has more in common with Fascism than Trump (they started the mass surveillance authoritarian state and told us that it was for "our protection", now we're the most surveilled state in the world.)

And it's endless denigration of certain people using buzzwords that has led to the word Fascism to be reduced to a word that Lefties use for people they don't agree with (similar to Nazi, Racist etc.,), hence it is meaningless.

Even Bernito Mussolini, who founded the national fascist party, stated that Facism doesn't have a set place in the left-right political spectrum.

I'd say a lot of what you'd call "Liberals" today I'd call "Progressive Socialists" and their doctrine is far more damaging to the world than anything Donald Trump represents, and is more in line with the Fascism of the early 20th century.

fascism
ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy, absolute rule, Nazism, rightism, militarism; More
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.
"this is yet another example of health fascism in action"

Once again, we are talking about freedom of belief here and creepy c__s like trump would use thought police if he could.

I see no one else in recent history acting like he has an issue what religion people are.

Its like if a mod came down right now and deleted you because of what you think, or refused to allow you to join the site. Its not what most normal people want.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Its not meaningless. We have a US president who stood on a platform that attacked a religion.

Its wake up and smell the coffee time. If you believe in freedom of belief, then you are a liberal in this argument. If you do not believe in freedom of belief, then you are a fascist.

I am not muslim, nor do i have plans to be. I see no argument that justifies compromising my freedom of belief, or attacking normal average people based on their religion.

This is literally thought police stuff. Orwell would have spat in trumps face.

Islam is a death cult, founded by a pedophile and war criminal. I'm perfectly happy for Trump to attack the freedom to practice this particular, "religion".

 

[WhitebeltXL]

fascism
ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy, absolute rule, Nazism, rightism, militarism; More
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.
"this is yet another example of health fascism in action"

Once again, we are talking about freedom of belief here and creepy c__s like trump would use thought police if he could.

I see no one else in recent history acting like he has an issue what religion people are.

Its like if a mod came down right now and deleted you because of what you think, or refused to allow you to join the site. Its not what most normal people want.

I'd say the describing of Facism as right wing completely ignores what actual Fascist regimes looked like.

They were aggressively expansionist, wanted complete and total control of their populace and were against democracy (one party rule).

Main criticisms of Trump are that he is isolationist in policy and Nationalist. Being an isolationist runs in direct contrast with being a Fascist.

I'd say Trump is patriotic and believes in putting his country, and his citizens first. That's not Fascism.

George Orwell was a socialist who despised communism, he stated that Nationalism was imposing your countries beliefs and values onto others, whereas Patriotism is a defence of your belief systems, values etc.,

I don't know where your definition of Fascism came from, but it's categorically wrong when looked at with historical fascist regimes. Seems like revisionist history to me.

 

[seiger]

Islam is a death cult, founded by a pedophile and war criminal. I'm perfectly happy for Trump to attack the freedom to practice this particular, "religion".

Thats your opinion, and the only reason you are allowed to have it, is freedom of belief.

Trump isnt just attacking islam, he is attacking muslims, and he is attacking you and your freedom to think what you want and to follow whatever religion you like.

The fact is islam is one of the worlds great religions, muslims are good people and you hate a quarter of the planet. that is your right, but i fail to see how your bigotry should affect me or other normal peoples rights to think and believe what they like.

Are you so weak in your beliefs that you want to invade other peoples brains?

Youve gone from trying to own womens wombs to trying to own the minds of men. Its obviously not going to work.

 

[seiger]

I'd say the describing of Facism as right wing completely ignores what actual Fascist regimes looked like.

They were aggressively expansionist, wanted complete and total control of their populace and were against democracy (one party rule).

Main criticisms of Trump are that he is isolationist in policy and Nationalist. Being an isolationist runs in direct contrast with being a Fascist.

I'd say Trump is patriotic and believes in putting his country, and his citizens first. That's not Fascism.

George Orwell was a socialist who despised communism, he stated that Nationalism was imposing your countries beliefs and values onto others, whereas Patriotism is a defence of your belief systems, values etc.,

I don't know where your definition of Fascism came from, but it's categorically wrong when looked at with historical fascist regimes. Seems like revisionist history to me.

Orwell hated fascists. Orwell coined the term thought police. Fascism isnt tied to expansionism, and fascism isnt an honest system that will betray its plans. Also while we're at it, i dont remember orwell slagging off muslims, and his stint in india led to him changing his name to something less elitist.

If you want to suspend freedom of belief, for all of the people reading this, you are a fascist.

 

[WhitebeltXL]

Orwell hated fascists. Orwell coined the term thought police. Fascism isnt tied to expansionism, and fascism isnt an honest system that will betray its plans. Also while we're at it, i dont remember orwell slagging off muslims, and his stint in india led to him changing his name to something less elitist.

If you want to suspend freedom of belief, for all of the people reading this, you are a fascist.

And the fascists that Orwell hated were Left leaning. Not "right wing". Who do you think inspired 1984, Animal Farm etc.,???

 

[seiger]

"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless."

"All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword."

- George Orwell, "What is Facism?", 1944

the bit you missed out...

(You picked the wrong motherfucka to quote orwell to. )

"Yet underneath all this mess there does lie a kind of buried meaning. To begin with, it is clear that there are very great differences, some of them easy to point out and not easy to explain away, between the régimes called Fascist and those called democratic. Secondly, if ‘Fascist’ means ‘in sympathy with Hitler’, some of the accusations I have listed above are obviously very much more justified than others. Thirdly, even the people who recklessly fling the word ‘Fascist’ in every direction attach at any rate an emotional significance to it. By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.."
George Orwell
What is Fascism?
TRIBUNE 1944

http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc