First Round North South Choke by Michel Prazeres

[Concrete Whale]

https://oddshot.tv/s/zDFaBC

Powers through from half guard to side control, wraps the neck and pivots around for a quick and efficient choke. Not the best defence from Burkman it must be said.

 

[EndlessCritic]

yeah it's usually hard to defend chokes when you're practically KO'ed from strikes.

 

[Concrete Whale]

This subforum is so snobby lol. It reminds me of when I used to play pool a lot at university and whenever my friend or I made a really good pot we would just play it off and act all cool and unimpressed so anyone who was watching would think wow these guys are legit such a great shot is no big deal to them.

Now on here unless you are dropping the heaviest of names and unless you are discussing like the latest triple inverted berimbolo entry to hybrid worm guard that just got unveiled by so and so at the worlds everyone is all like that don't impress me much.

Admit it the choice of N/S choke was intriguing and even if his opponent kind of wanted out by that time it was still executed ruthlessly and precisely.

 

[MilesP4P]

https://oddshot.tv/s/zDFaBC

Powers through from half guard to side control, wraps the neck and pivots around for a quick and efficient choke. Not the best defence from Burkman it must be said.

Very interesting sequence, and as you siad not the best defense from Burkman but I think most people in general (especially in MMA ) just dont see the N/S coming. It is a difficult choke to master in comparison to simpler chokes like RNC(just get the neck and squeeze). But when someone is good at it, they can get it very often because people do NOT see it coming because of its rarity in gyms around the world and in MMA. For example Rani Yahya, has 3 or 4 submission wins by NS choke, same set up every time too. I think N/S choke and omoplatas (once someone figures out how to make it more high percentage move in terms of finishing a guy and not just getting a sweep) are going to be seen alot more in mma in the futre.

 

[Concrete Whale]

Very interesting sequence, and as you siad not the best defense from Burkman but I think most people in general (especially in MMA ) just dont see the N/S coming. It is a difficult choke to master in comparison to simpler chokes like RNC(just get the neck and squeeze). But when someone is good at it, they can get it very often because people do NOT see it coming because of its rarity in gyms around the world and in MMA. For example Rani Yahya, has 3 or 4 submission wins by NS choke, same set up every time too. I think N/S choke and omoplatas (once someone figures out how to make it more high percentage move in terms of finishing a guy and not just getting a sweep) are going to be seen alot more in mma in the futre.

Some good points there. Burkman was definitely expecting the transition to mount and from his reaction he may well have not been able to remember how to technically defend the N/S choke in the heat of the moment.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I thought it was cool to see. Was it the cleanest, smoothest looking thing in the world? No. But it was still nice to see some variety in the submissions in the UFC.

 

[Concrete Whale]

That was Prazeres's first NS choke but he does have 5 RNCs and a triangle so he's not someone you want to let near your neck in any position.

 

[mataleaos]

This subforum is so snobby lol. It reminds me of when I used to play pool a lot at university and whenever my friend or I made a really good pot we would just play it off and act all cool and unimpressed so anyone who was watching would think wow these guys are legit such a great shot is no big deal to them.

Now on here unless you are dropping the heaviest of names and unless you are discussing like the latest triple inverted berimbolo entry to hybrid worm guard that just got unveiled by so and so at the worlds everyone is all like that don't impress me much.

Admit it the choice of N/S choke was intriguing and even if his opponent kind of wanted out by that time it was still executed ruthlessly and precisely.

Good post and the thing I find surprising is that the north south choke is considered an interesting choice. It's such an underused technique in grappling and especially MMA. There's almost no risk to go for it and the reward is high. It's simeple and powerful. You can finish it with just your hands connected or even with no hands connected. People get to side control all of the time in MMA and dont want to risk giving up top position. The north south choke is such a good choice. it's not even like we see it tried and failed a lot. Almost anytime I see it tried I see it finished. It also covers a need in the modern sub only movement because people get passed and stay flat to defend instead of turning in or away. The north south choke is a good answer for that. I don't know why the move hasn't taken off the way it could. The only complaint I ever hear about it is that the feel of the finish has a steeper learning curve than others chokes.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Good post and the thing I find surprising is that the north south choke is considered an interesting choice. It's such an underused technique in grappling and especially MMA. There's almost no risk to go for it and the reward is high. It's simeple and powerful. You can finish it with just your hands connected or even with no hands connected. People get to side control all of the time in MMA and dont want to risk giving up top position. The north south choke is such a good choice. it's not even like we see it tried and failed a lot. Almost anytime I see it tried I see it finished. It also covers a need in the modern sub only movement because people get passed and stay flat to defend instead of turning in or away. The north south choke is a good answer for that. I don't know why the move hasn't taken off the way it could. The only complaint I ever hear about it is that the feel of the finish has a steeper learning curve than others chokes.

I disagree that there isn't risk. It's probably one of the easier subs to lose, especially with the gloves making grips harder. I love seeing it in MMA, but it's a lot riskier to go for than just staying on top and striking. Jeff Monson probably had the best method because he'd usually keep an arm in making it more controlling, but he was also unapologetic about using a great deal of his considerable power to finish it by just smashing peoples' faces. Not an option that is open to everyone.

 

[mataleaos]

I disagree that there isn't risk. It's probably one of the easier subs to lose, especially with the gloves making grips harder. I love seeing it in MMA, but it's a lot riskier to go for than just staying on top and striking. Jeff Monson probably had the best method because he'd usually keep an arm in making it more controlling, but he was also unapologetic about using a great deal of his considerable power to finish it by just smashing peoples' faces. Not an option that is open to everyone.

If you lose it don't you at least keep top position most of the time? I like the arm-in also and I think it's easier to keep top position with it. Maybe I've overestimating the low risk factor. It may be a strawman or false dichotomy but I never understand why anyone that's willing to try an armbar from mount or cross body would feel a north south choke is significantly riskier for losing position.

I guess there's also a small risk of getting your back taken or getting put into an inverted triangle if someone is flexible and good at inverting.

Setting aside MMA do you think it's underused for pure grappling? Or you still think somewhat risky?

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you lose it don't you at least keep top position most of the time? I like the arm-in also and I think it's easier to keep top position with it. Maybe I've overestimating the low risk factor. It may be a strawman or false dichotomy but I never understand why anyone that's willing to try an armbar from mount or cross body would feel a north south choke is significantly riskier for losing position.

I guess there's also a small risk of getting your back taken or getting put into an inverted triangle if someone is flexible and good at inverting.

Setting aside MMA do you think it's underused for pure grappling? Or you still think somewhat risky?

The risk is losing position, especially if you're doing it without an arm in. Not necessarily losing position so badly that you end up on bottom, but losing back to guard or neutral. The problem is you only have a grip on the guy's head, and you don't have a chinstrap or anything to keep that grip tight. The process by which you readjust your torso position to expose his neck to choke also often gives him a window to spin away. FWIW, I think throwing arm bars from top mount in MMA is generally a bad idea unless you're already losing the position. The dominant strategy is to just hit him and stay on top, unless you're within 20 seconds or so of the round end and think you're more likely to finish the sub than pound him out in the that time period.

I like it better for pure grappling, just because it's not so easy to finish from top so you need to take more risks, and because without the gloves it's easier to strongly connect your hands and get a good lock on his head. I'm pro N/S choke, I just recognize that it's a lot more positionally sketchy than an RNC or inverted heel hook from inside sankaku.

 

[mataleaos]

The risk is losing position, especially if you're doing it without an arm in. Not necessarily losing position so badly that you end up on bottom, but losing back to guard or neutral. The problem is you only have a grip on the guy's head, and you don't have a chinstrap or anything to keep that grip tight. The process by which you readjust your torso position to expose his neck to choke also often gives him a window to spin away. FWIW, I think throwing arm bars from top mount in MMA is generally a bad idea unless you're already losing the position. The dominant strategy is to just hit him and stay on top, unless you're within 20 seconds or so of the round end and think you're more likely to finish the sub than pound him out in the that time period.

I like it better for pure grappling, just because it's not so easy to finish from top so you need to take more risks, and because without the gloves it's easier to strongly connect your hands and get a good lock on his head. I'm pro N/S choke, I just recognize that it's a lot more positionally sketchy than an RNC or inverted heel hook from inside sankaku.

Your last example made me realize how far tings have shifted. I never would have guessed the inside leg triangle could be one of the most secure things out there but I agree. I think without the gi that the the inside leg entanglements, kimuras, front headlocks, and seatbelt grips are the most secure attacking grips/positions you can get.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Your last example made me realize how far tings have shifted. I never would have guessed the inside leg triangle could be one of the most secure things out there but I agree. I think without the gi that the the inside leg entanglements, kimuras, front headlocks, and seatbelt grips are the most secure attacking grips/positions you can get.

They absolutely are. Without the gi you control people mostly by threat of submission or being able to join your own hands around something solid (head and arm, waist), and the main positional consideration is if you can isolate a limb or the neck while maintaining control. So yeah, leg locking positions where you're very stable and can isolate one leg to attack without really risking the position are in my opinion much better positions than something like mount where it's actually very hard to forcefully isolate a limb or the neck without risking your base.

 

[TheMood]

I thought it was a good submission especially since I don't think I have ever finished a north south in years of training.

 

[kjg1672]

I thought it was a good submission especially since I don't think I have ever finished a north south in years of training.

Yep, I went through a phase where I was trying it a lot and able to get to the choking position, but I don't know if I ever actually finished one. I eventually abandoned it. Marcelo makes it look so easy.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Good post and the thing I find surprising is that the north south choke is considered an interesting choice. It's such an underused technique in grappling and especially MMA. There's almost no risk to go for it and the reward is high. It's simeple and powerful. You can finish it with just your hands connected or even with no hands connected. People get to side control all of the time in MMA and dont want to risk giving up top position. The north south choke is such a good choice. it's not even like we see it tried and failed a lot. Almost anytime I see it tried I see it finished. It also covers a need in the modern sub only movement because people get passed and stay flat to defend instead of turning in or away. The north south choke is a good answer for that. I don't know why the move hasn't taken off the way it could. The only complaint I ever hear about it is that the feel of the finish has a steeper learning curve than others chokes.

I wouldn't say it's risk free. The transition to n/s gives a good opportunity for the man on bottom to hit a strong bridge and get to his knees, and thus eventually to his feet. You just don't experience it much in BJJ because nobody is trying to stand up.

 

[mataleaos]

Yep, I went through a phase where I was trying it a lot and able to get to the choking position, but I don't know if I ever actually finished one. I eventually abandoned it. Marcelo makes it look so easy.

The more I think about it the more I think you've got a good point. I've actually been on the mats with a world class black belt that was trying to get the feel for it down and he was having a hard time. It wasn't his first time trying it either and he was saying that it was one of the more frustrating techniques he had worked on. He didn't have an unusual build either.

 

[jtmb]

Anyone ever come across this north south choke counter?

[yt]

I've had some success with the N/S choke but it can take some adjusting and can take some time to actually finish. This counter comes on really quickly and I have had a hard time trouble shooting my way around it.

 

[mataleaos]

Anyone ever come across this north south choke counter?

[yt]

I've had some success with the N/S choke but it can take some adjusting and can take some time to actually finish. This counter comes on really quickly and I have had a hard time trouble shooting my way around it.

Marcelo Garcia does this counter a lot but he connects his hands instead of going to a RNC grip. I tried it years ago and wrote it off as something only Marcelo could do. Last fall GSP posted a video on instagram of Zack Makovsky tapping him out with it, and I tried it again and I've gotten about a handful of taps with it. Can't lie. it does take a strong squeeze. I generally believe the 'squeeze' thing is overrated and @Calibur has a great write up on that here on F12 from back in the day. But this does require putting some juice on the choke.

One detail that really helps is to try and catch it before they are sprawled far down on you. I thought it was just a last ditch attempt when you're fully caught. But if you lock it before they're fully sprawled into position, your grip sort of kills their ability to sprawl back farther. Since the north south choke is all about sprawling back farther and farther, catching them with this inverted north south choke should make it harder for them to put full choking pressure on you. The few taps I've gotten with it I was surprised at how much I was able to keep their choking pressure diminished.

I have strong nogi chokes and it takes me a good 10 seconds to finish it though. And I'd still rather escape the choke rather than try to have a north south choke duel.

 

[Concrete Whale]

I do think getting the pressure right on the N/S choke is a bit more difficult than on most chokes. However as someone mentioned if you are heavy/strong you can always just escalate the pressure on chokes
stop blood
stop air
crank neck / crush face

and get the tap somehow or other and again usually having a good weight advantage I can usually finish it if I am reasonably near correct form.

However if it's not happening you can often bait a d'arce, guy has an arm in or you let him get one in then take a little step to the side and you are waiting for him as he comes up to his side. Got to be quick though. Even if you can tell you are not going to finish the choke you can make someone very uncomfortable and they will be eager to come up to their side to get away from the crush/smother.