Discourse on Boxing vs MMA vs other sports

[Tuvatuva]

Why does there seem to be a disproportionate amount of boxing vs MMA sentiment? There always seems to be some discourse about how boxers can't handle leg kicks or take downs. Whether it be on social media, youtube, forums, or even in real life discussions.
Show a boxer with impressive skills and there's always some idiot saying something along the lines of "He wouldn't stop a double leg."

There doesn't seem to be the same amount rivalry between boxing vs muay thai or MMA vs muay thai. Or even grappling arts vs other grappling arts. You'll get the occasional comment from a boxer criticizing a MT fighter's punching technique or people claiming BJJ doesn't work on the street, but it not at the same volume or vitriol as in boxing vs MMA. People don't watch Saenchai and talk about how they could just take him down and submit him. People aren't claiming Muay Thai is an inferior sport because Mighty Mouse beat Rodtang in MMA. People don't watch olympic wrestling and say, "Let's see them do that when the opponent can use punches and submissions!"

I know the obvious answer is money. MMA fighters aren't going to make the same amount of money calling out Muay Thai guys or Judokas or Wrestlers or whatever.

I watch a lot of boxing content along with some muay thai and judo content, and I notice a clear difference. The discourse of judo vs bjj or other grappling arts exist, but it's much more technical and academic.

 

[Zanmato]

They are the only 2 sports capable of generating and promoting big stars making bold claims that lets fans hook into and debate I think. You probably have to be slightly more of a connoisseur or actively training in a striking sport yourself to know who, say, Jonathan Haggerty is and that itself probably weeds out a lot of the fantasy fight trolling

 

[panem-et-circenses]

I think the origin of MMA didn’t help. Boxing wasn’t just hostile toward cage-fighting through verbiage, some of the characters involved went out of their way to tear it down, even after SEG changed the sport, and then Zuffa ran with it, investing in its future. That instilled a sense of ‘little brother syndrome’, and at a time when MMA was a joke to the majority of people out there. In response, many of the fans took on an old school pro-wrestling mindset to protect their sport or hobby. Talking about people who might not have been hardcore boxing fans to begin with — look at where a lot of PRIDE and UFC fans came from.

Today, as I just watched the last Showtime boxing event, those aforementioned attitudes still persist, imo, only now it seems like boxing is the one fighting for territory in the 20’s. So, add the usual chip on the shoulder, take into account that Boxing fans are very loyal, sometimes to the point of delusion, and you get this reduced argument between the core groups. It doesn’t help that there is a trashy element imbued in cage-fighting.

Having done both judo and BJJ, yea, there is kind of a rivalry, but it can only go so far once you learn the history of grappling. People aren’t arguing about Rickson getting KO’d by Judo, or at least I hope they aren’t. No-gi takes from everywhere, and it’s the biggest part of grappling on the whole.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

It's just little brother syndrome, or psychoanalytically, what's known as the Remus Complex.

 

[Fisticuffa]

Little brother syndrome for UFC fans

Must be galling to see Boxing is still here and UFC guys still have to box to make their biggest paydays after Dana and Rogan spent 20 years telling them Boxing is dead. I remember when Boxing was supposed to die after Odlh retired as there were no other stars, then it was to die after May and Pac, now it's after Canelo

Meanwhile none of them talk about Boxing vs MMA worldwide, not even JMMA vs J Boxing. Compare JMMA in peak Pride era vs now. Now look at J Boxing with Inoue, Nakatani, Ioka etc.

Sor Rungvisai is better known in Thailand than any Thai MMA fighter and the Thai PM met him twice

No UK MMA fighter even comes close to AJ and Fury. I wouldn't be surprised if Tim Tszyu is already better known in Aus than Volkanovski

 

[Hagler]

Boxing is dead anyway. Why bother ?

 

[ferrisjso]

Because boxing traditionally had a place in cultural life and MMA is trying to occupy that spot. Whether or not MMA replaces boxing or whether MMA and boxing share the fact remains that MMA and boxing are direct competitiors appealing to the exact same sort of person.

 

[Deaths Head]

There is no rivalry . A rivalry exists only in less intelligent people that they create it in their head with no rhyme or reason to do so .

Those who actually like a fight will watch . A good fight is a good fight no matter where it is . Even grappling only matches can be great if you know what your looking at .

The whole Boxing vs MMA arguments are for little kids or adults who think like little kids and whine about everything, they don’t even know what they’re arguing about half the time .

Put on a good fight I’ll be watching it ,I even watched X Arm I think it was called when you arm wrestled and punched and submitted your opponent’s on an arm wrestling table while trying to pin them . Lol

 

[Seano]

Boxing builds stars, MMA builds promotions. MMA fans have always had a hard time accepting this for some reason.

 

[Tuvatuva]

Sor Rungvisai is better known in Thailand than any Thai MMA fighter and the Thai PM met him twice

No UK MMA fighter even comes close to AJ and Fury. I wouldn't be surprised if Tim Tszyu is already better known in Aus than Volkanovski

I visited Bangkok some months after Sor Rungvisai knocked out Chocolatito. I saw giant posters of him in the city. I was surprised that boxers got so much clout in Thailand because I thought they would only be about Muay Thai stars. I lived in Thailand for several months and learned muay thai at several gyms. MMA seems to be barely noticed and there doesn't seem to be any Muay Thai vs boxing discussion here. I guess afterall, even the boxers train out of MT gyms. The only people I've met who have a "Muay Thai > Boxing" sentiment were westerners who don't even train.

They are the only 2 sports capable of generating and promoting big stars making bold claims that lets fans hook into and debate I think. You probably have to be slightly more of a connoisseur or actively training in a striking sport yourself to know who, say, Jonathan Haggerty is and that itself probably weeds out a lot of the fantasy fight trolling

I guess the conversation would be different if Kickboxing became the biggest combat sport after boxing.

 

[Mujeriego]

Why does there seem to be a disproportionate amount of boxing vs MMA sentiment? There always seems to be some discourse about how boxers can't handle leg kicks or take downs. Whether it be on social media, youtube, forums, or even in real life discussions.
Show a boxer with impressive skills and there's always some idiot saying something along the lines of "He wouldn't stop a double leg."

There doesn't seem to be the same amount rivalry between boxing vs muay thai or MMA vs muay thai. Or even grappling arts vs other grappling arts. You'll get the occasional comment from a boxer criticizing a MT fighter's punching technique or people claiming BJJ doesn't work on the street, but it not at the same volume or vitriol as in boxing vs MMA. People don't watch Saenchai and talk about how they could just take him down and submit him. People aren't claiming Muay Thai is an inferior sport because Mighty Mouse beat Rodtang in MMA. People don't watch olympic wrestling and say, "Let's see them do that when the opponent can use punches and submissions!"

I know the obvious answer is money. MMA fighters aren't going to make the same amount of money calling out Muay Thai guys or Judokas or Wrestlers or whatever.

I watch a lot of boxing content along with some muay thai and judo content, and I notice a clear difference. The discourse of judo vs bjj or other grappling arts exist, but it's much more technical and academic.

The success of the white American in boxing had dwindled by the 90s.
UFC comes out, and white guys, who could never compete in the ring, now think they have found an alternate route to that argument.
"I'd just take him down".
Chuck Lidell, Rich Franklin, Forrest Griffith, Lesnar, Couture, all those guys, they loved them.
Guys that looked like them or people they knew. They identified with those guys.
Carwin, Abbot, Severn, all of em

"Chuck even has abs on his back" I once heard one of them say.

 

[Dr Fong]

It's just little brother syndrome, or psychoanalytically, what's known as the Remus Complex.

And the Romulus Complex fits the other shoe. Boxing fans are the more delusional ones when it comes to the boxing vs MMA nonsense even if there is plenty on that side too.

This is because they are anxious about boxing losing its status, just as firstborns perpetually fear being usurped by their younger sibling. To the point that it makes them delusional about boxing itself.

When I was on here telling people that Ngannou would likely be just inside a top 20 HW boxer (before he fought Fury), I was mocked endlessly. And I explained that these people were wrong not because they underestimated Ngannou due to their ignorance of MMA, but because they overestimated the talent of HW boxing.

I wasn't right because I knew more about MMA than these boxing fans, I was right because I knew more about boxing than them.

The perceived threat of MMA made many boxing fans highly insecure and the way they coped was to become delusional - believing boxers could forge successful long-term MMA careers without ever learning wrestling, BJJ or kickboxing. Highly embarrassing yet prevalent thinking.

They obsessed over Mercer vs Sylvia while ignoring Mercer vs Kimbo, because the latter showed what happens when the puncher's chance doesn't land. Cognitive dissonance flourished. Boxers became god-like superheroes in the minds of some boxing fans to cope with the rise of MMa.

The phenomenon remains as fascinating, retarded and pathetic as it was two decades ago.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

And the Romulus Complex fits the other shoe. Boxing fans are the more delusional ones when it comes to the boxing vs MMA nonsense even if there is plenty on that side too.

This is because they are anxious about boxing losing its status, just as firstborns perpetually fear being usurped by their younger sibling. To the point that it makes them delusional about boxing itself.

When I was on here telling people that Ngannou would likely be just inside a top 20 HW boxer (before he fought Fury), I was mocked endlessly. And I explained that these people were wrong not because they underestimated Ngannou due to their ignorance of MMA, but because they overestimated the talent of HW boxing.

I wasn't right because I knew more about MMA than these boxing fans, I was right because I knew more about boxing than them.

The perceived threat of MMA made many boxing fans highly insecure and the way they coped was to become delusional - believing boxers could forge successful long-term MMA careers without ever learning wrestling, BJJ or kickboxing. Highly embarrassing yet prevalent thinking.

They obsessed over Mercer vs Sylvia while ignoring Mercer vs Kimbo, because the latter showed what happens when the puncher's chance doesn't land. Cognitive dissonance flourished. Boxers became god-like superheroes in the minds of some boxing fans to cope with the rise of MMa.

The phenomenon remains as fascinating, retarded and pathetic as it was two decades ago.

Guy, if you think that boxing fans are even more insecure than MMA fans then you just haven't been paying close enough attention. Read the OP again. Then, read it a second time just for good measure. There's a reason why all of these MMA fighters are coming over to boxing. Many of them aspired to be boxers originally. Even the guy that you were "right" about (Ngannou).

 

[Dr Fong]

Guy, if you think that boxing fans are even more insecure than MMA fans then you just haven't been paying close enough attention. Read the OP again. Then, read it a second time just for good measure. There's a reason why all of these MMA fighters are coming over to boxing. Many of them aspired to be boxers originally. Even the guy that you were "right" about (Ngannou).

Of course there is a reason MMA embarrassingly have to call out boxers. There is much more money to be made in boxing than U Fight Cheap.

But there is nothing 'little brother' about U Fight Cheap itself, it is by far the biggest and most profitable fight promotion in the world. It's not even close. Its gain is its fighters loss though. The pathetic state of MMA pay is a choice by the monopsony promoter, not a reflection of the money that could be made.

MMA in global terms is very much a little brother to boxing, but this is less clear cut in North America, the most important market. Boxing remains culturally more significant and a mega boxing fight will generate more attention than a mega MMA fight (think Floyd vs Pac compared to Conor vs Khabib). But U Fight Cheap is more able to consistently generate PPV buys than boxing events, where PPV is dependent on a very small group of stars.

Anyway, I was just using the talk of a little brother mentality to discuss the delusional big brother syndrome that pervades the boxing world in relation to MMA.

Of course you don't recognize how delusional some boxing fans are, because you are one of them.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Of course there is a reason MMA embarrassingly have to call out boxers. There is much more money to be made in boxing than U Fight Cheap.

But there is nothing 'little brother' about U Fight Cheap itself, it is by far the biggest and most profitable fight promotion in the world. It's not even close. Its gain is its fighters loss though. The pathetic state of MMA pay is a choice by the monopsony promoter, not a reflection of the money that could be made.

MMA in global terms is very much a little brother to boxing, but this is less clear cut in North America, the most important market. Boxing remains culturally more significant and a mega boxing fight will generate more attention than a mega MMA fight (think Floyd vs Pac compared to Conor vs Khabib). But U Fight Cheap is more able to consistently generate PPV buys than boxing events, where PPV is dependent on a very small group of stars.

Anyway, I was just using the talk of a little brother mentality to discuss the delusional big brother syndrome that pervades the boxing world in relation to MMA.

Of course you don't recognize how delusional some boxing fans are, because you are one of them.

You're starting to sound more and more like a mental patient. Incoherent ramblings and all. Nobody thinks that the big brother is more delusional than the little brother. The little brother wants to BE the big brother you dolt. I really shouldn't have to spell this out for you but lo & behold I did.

 

[Dr Fong]

You're starting to sound more and more like a mental patient. Incoherent ramblings and all. Nobody thinks that the big brother is more delusional than the little brother. The little brother wants to BE the big brother you dolt. I really shouldn't have to spell this out for you but lo & behold I did.

Little brother wants to be the big brother. Big brother fears being replaced by the little brother. That's how the Remus-Romulus dynamic works.

It makes perfect sense that this would lead to delusional thinking on behalf of the big brother, as they must delude themselves to maintain their self-identity of superiority.

Anyway, it's actually a retarded way to look at this nonsense issue anyway, only really good for rustling some jimmies. I was just following your lead.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Little brother wants to be the big brother. Big brother fears being replaced by the little brother. That's how the Remus-Romulus dynamic works.

It makes perfect sense that this would lead to delusional thinking on behalf of the big brother, as they must delude themselves to maintain their self-identity of superiority.

Anyway, it's actually a retarded way to look at this nonsense issue anyway, only really good for rustling some jimmies. I was just following your lead.

What you don't seem to comprehend is that MMA is too complex of a sport for the layman to grasp. The general public consists of these everyday people. So, the 'replacement' argument is purely theoretical. It isn't practical. Boxing, on the other hand, is easy to understand even by viewers that are intellectually challenged. Simplicity is key. On the surface it's just punching and dodging punches. Anyone can get into it as the barrier to entry is low. This isn't true of MMA. That's why they sell books like "MMA For Dummies."

Since you mentioned the North American market you should check the latest Harris poll results. Boxing is leading in popularity over MMA, hockey, tennis, and golf in the US.

 

[Dr Fong]

What you don't seem to comprehend is that MMA is too complex of a sport for the layman to grasp. The general public consists of these everyday people. So, the 'replacement' argument is purely theoretical. It isn't practical. Boxing, on the other hand, is easy to understand even by viewers that are intellectually challenged. Simplicity is key. On the surface it's just punching and dodging punches. Anyone can get into it as the barrier to entry is low. This isn't true of MMA. That's why they sell books like "MMA For Dummies."

Since you mentioned the North American market you should check the latest Harris poll results. Boxing is leading in popularity over MMA, hockey, tennis, and golf in the US.

Of course boxing is going to be more popular than MMA in a poll, as it is far more ingrained in public consciousness or 'culturally significant' as I put it. This is due to history and also for the reasons you mention - a lot of people find MMA confusing and aesthetically unappealing.

But the reality is that MMA has consistently beaten boxing in annual PPVs sold (not every year) in North America since it became popular. It has a smaller potential fanbase but one that it can more effectively mobilize to part ways with their money. And the biggest single fight promotion by far is the UFC. Its little brother status is thus somewhat questionable.

Globally of course boxing is by far the bigger brother. The only countries where MMA even remotely competes with boxing for attention are the US, Canada, Australia and Brazil (Russia I'm ignorant of how popular MMA is relative to boxing, I presume Fedor and Khabib might be fairly big stars though). MMA even lost Japan, which at one point was its most competitive market.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Of course boxing is going to be more popular than MMA in a poll, as it is far more ingrained in public consciousness or 'culturally significant' as I put it. This is due to history and also for the reasons you mention - a lot of people find MMA confusing and aesthetically unappealing.

But the reality is that MMA has consistently beaten boxing in annual PPVs sold (not every year) in North America since it became popular. It has a smaller potential fanbase but one that it can more effectively mobilize to part ways with their money. And the biggest single fight promotion by far is the UFC. Its little brother status is thus somewhat questionable.

Globally of course boxing is by far the bigger brother. The only countries where MMA even remotely competes with boxing for attention are the US, Canada, Australia and Brazil (Russia I'm ignorant of how popular MMA is relative to boxing, I presume Fedor and Khabib might be fairly big stars though). MMA even lost Japan, which at one point was its most competitive market.

In other words boxers can sell less PPVs and still make more money than their MMA counterparts. What good is selling a bunch of PPVs annually when the fighters in the UFC don't even see what they've actually earned? In boxing there are obviously multiple top promotions. It's decentralized. The UFC is the biggest fight promotion in the world but it's also a single point of failure. The fans see better fights but the fighters earn slave wages as a result. They have nowhere else to go because the UFC is the premier org. No options are available to them.

 

[Dr Fong]

In other words boxers can sell less PPVs and still make more money than their MMA counterparts. What good is selling a bunch of PPVs annually when the fighters in the UFC don't even see what they've actually earned? In boxing there are obviously multiple top promotions. It's decentralized. The UFC is the biggest fight promotion in the world but it's also a single point of failure. The fans see better fights but the fighters earn slave wages as a result. They have nowhere else to go because the UFC is the premier org. No options are available to them.

We do not disagree about U Fight Cheap's horrendous pay. It holds back MMA in general as you can't attract talent to a sport where even the best are paid like shit. The UFC cannibalizes its existing market rather than trying to expand it.

But I think a combat sports monopsonies could theoretically be good things, as long as fighters have legal protections with fair contracts, a strong union, and a guaranteed revenue share in line with other sporting monopsonies.

Decentralization is not good for the consumer as it just allows guys to consistently duck the fights fans want to see.

As it stands, obviously the boxing model is the lesser of two evils, because if I am going to watch people give each other CTE, I want them to at least earn good money doing it.