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Describing
Describing "Base"
- Thread starter Cash Bill 52
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Great post (bookmarked this thread btw)
I have a question about this part:
I have a lot of trouble finishing this choke and will definitely take your advice about increasing the power of my base when attempting it, my question is how do you prefer to use the second hand when doing this choke? I've seen guys just grab the material of the gi right next to the neck with no fingers in the lapel and I've seen guys briefly loosen the first hand and then pop a thumb in on the second hand and finish the choke with that grip.
I seem to be good at getting the first hand deep into the lapel and getting good pressure on that side but struggle to get adequate pressure with the 2nd hand to finish the choke.
Sorry if this is a little off topic. :wink:
I have a question about this part:
I have a lot of trouble finishing this choke and will definitely take your advice about increasing the power of my base when attempting it, my question is how do you prefer to use the second hand when doing this choke? I've seen guys just grab the material of the gi right next to the neck with no fingers in the lapel and I've seen guys briefly loosen the first hand and then pop a thumb in on the second hand and finish the choke with that grip.
I seem to be good at getting the first hand deep into the lapel and getting good pressure on that side but struggle to get adequate pressure with the 2nd hand to finish the choke.
Sorry if this is a little off topic. :wink:
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Thanks for the insight into "base". I've only just started BJJ (and it is my first grappling art) so that was a very informative read into the basics of position.
Will be keeping an eye on this thread for sure.
Will be keeping an eye on this thread for sure.
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I've been told to put my elbow (first arm) on my opponent's sternum. But, as I look at it, I am really pulling my elbow to my hips. It just winds up on his sternum. As I pull his back off the ground, space opens up on the other side. I like to go thumb in on that side. I am also attacking from an angle. Once I have my grip, I rotate back to square and tighten by moving my knuckles to the mat. Once I have my grips. My head falls to the mat with my arms straight. Trumpet Dan can probably describe it better...
From what I have learned.
Base is more about balance, and I agree that has to do with your core a lot.
But a lot of the times you use your legs and arms as a base, and then you stretch your arms to "base" out.
And keeping your limbs secure while being on the bottom is more about keeping your body in a block. The part you wrote about pulling someones arm when standing up is more about keeping the arm from disrupting your base by grabbing your leg.
So I wouldnt say the person on bottom has "base".
Base is more about balance, and I agree that has to do with your core a lot.
But a lot of the times you use your legs and arms as a base, and then you stretch your arms to "base" out.
And keeping your limbs secure while being on the bottom is more about keeping your body in a block. The part you wrote about pulling someones arm when standing up is more about keeping the arm from disrupting your base by grabbing your leg.
So I wouldnt say the person on bottom has "base".
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I don't think you necessarily lose your base when you stand. To me, base is just posture + balance. I roll with guys who have great base from standing, in the sense that you can't break their posture or get them to move if they don't want to. I also think that you can have great base without necessarily being stationary or rooted. Leandro Lo has great base, but he's constantly floating and posting hands to prevent sweeps and pass. That's active base, very similar to what wrestlers mean when they say someone has great hips...it means that the person can control the alignment of their body and manage their balance well even during transitions and while in midair. That all constitutes base to me.
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Yes, and this is where the logic breaks down and describing base becomes difficult. If I am in mount and I base out with arms spread wide; I would say I have a good base. This contradicts the extremities near your core theory. However, if there is no disruption between your outer limbs and your core/hips your base is still intact. If they grab your arm and hug them your base might be compromised.
There is a split moment when I stand up where my base is not solid. (The initial lift of one leg). I've heard people say, "keep posture in all positions". I think it's hard to explain posture from the bottom as well.
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I like the idea of a floating base. I agree that posture and balance constitute a solid base. I think it's also weight distribution. Great wrestlers have it. They seem to have obtained it through years of training. I wish I had a wrestlers base, or I wish I could develop it as part of my jiu jitsu training...
Thanks for the reply.
Cool thanks man, will give this a try.
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Good post Cash Bill.
You seem to focus on the concept of a static base though. Watching guys like Lo and MG, they seem to be able to float on top while maintaining incredible base.
When you talk about the extremities and their proximity to your base, I think of concepts like a sprawl, and posting the arm far out to not get turned from top side. These are placing the extremities far away from the core, yet maintaining good base. There is probably something to be said about tight and close or far out, avoiding the in between.
Or perhaps it is a balance of ratios? With the legs sprawled, you're committing to them near 100%, so now cannot overreach with the arms, but should rather keep them close. Likewise with knee on belly, one leg is committed 100% over the opponent, so the other compensates by posting out further.
Or is it the horizontal plane that matters most. Again, a sprawl works best when on the toes and the hips are as low as possible.
Good topic. You're right that nobody really discusses it. It's like a concept that is almost entirely left to learning by feel, other than "post here" or "don't reach."
Thanks Bill.
You seem to focus on the concept of a static base though. Watching guys like Lo and MG, they seem to be able to float on top while maintaining incredible base.
When you talk about the extremities and their proximity to your base, I think of concepts like a sprawl, and posting the arm far out to not get turned from top side. These are placing the extremities far away from the core, yet maintaining good base. There is probably something to be said about tight and close or far out, avoiding the in between.
Or perhaps it is a balance of ratios? With the legs sprawled, you're committing to them near 100%, so now cannot overreach with the arms, but should rather keep them close. Likewise with knee on belly, one leg is committed 100% over the opponent, so the other compensates by posting out further.
Or is it the horizontal plane that matters most. Again, a sprawl works best when on the toes and the hips are as low as possible.
Good topic. You're right that nobody really discusses it. It's like a concept that is almost entirely left to learning by feel, other than "post here" or "don't reach."
Thanks Bill.
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When I used to do a lot of Chinese internal arts, base was a huge topic of conversation. But the different arts approached it very differently. Tai Chi was about receiving energy and diverting it into the floor (rooting), or staying in one place while redirecting force (yielding). Ba Gua (another chinese internal art) was about delivering and receiving energy in spirals, and rather than rooting or yielding with small upper body movements it was all about changing angles and diverting energy through compound spiral movements. But the best guys in both arts had a fantastic ability to redirect energy and maintain balance and posture (i.e. base), they just approached it in totally different ways. Likewise, I've trained with high level judoka who would feel like a brick wall with their hips when you entered for a throw, and I've trained with some who let you move them but then altered the trajectory of motion enough to prevent you from really taking their balance and throwing them. I tend more toward the 'active base' school of thought (maybe because I'm such a big Marcelo fan and his BJJ is very much about active base), but both are very powerful expressions of grappling when done well. I've certainly rolled with guys with ridiculous static bases whom I just couldn't make do anything they didn't want to do.
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I like the idea of a dynamic base. Movement like MG and Lo are great examples of that. Also, like you said, balance of ratios play a factor.
Do you think attacking an Americana by isolating the arm far from your opponent's core is an example of attacking a base? Tight elbows keep you safe. Base = Safety??? All joint attacks need some form of isolation of the joint.
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Bill, you'll be happy to know that just yesterday when I taught a beginners self defense class, I took the time at the end of class to define and demonstrate simple terms and concepts, one of them being "base."
The class started with the technical stand-up, which I told them is also called "standing up in base." I realized more white belts don't get what "base" means so I explained it explicitly.
I had them do a very simple drill to understand their base and balance. They just stood with their arms up in a basic defensive stance, and their partner walked around pushing and pull on them. They have to try to sink their hips and adjust their feet to keep a strong base. They lose when they are tipped over, usually when their head or hips end up in front of their toes or behind their heels.
That's a very, very simple drill, and boring to anyone with any experience, but I've found it to be a good for totally green white belts like I was teaching.
There are ways to stand up without base, like trying to hop straight to your feet and stand up with your feet together, which I had them try while their partner pushed on them. They kept stumbling and falling back down until they did the correct "stand up in base."
They were also learning the basic Gracie Jiu-Jitsu 101 clinch which has a strong emphasis on "base." You can almost hear Rorion say "base" every time you drill these because he drove that point so hard in the old VHS tapes.
From the clinch, I'd have their partner try to bully them, trip them up, and toss them around. They had to find how to position themselves so they weren't easily affected or off-balanced, while also being able to pressure and control their partner.
I define base as how you position yourself to maintain your balance and connect yourself to the ground. Your base is often on your feet or knees, but it can use your hands, elbows, shoulders, or head.
Your base can be connected to your opponent, like posting a hand on their hips, or your chest against their chest. Having your base on your opponent also be dangerous because then their motion can disrupt it, but this connection is also what allows you to apply pressure and control them.
A solid base tends to be wide with a low center of gravity. That center is usually in your hips, which is why sinking and dropping them down is so emphasized.
Good sweeps attack the opponent's base to off-balance them. If you can't break their base, then the sweep will be difficult and require too much effort and strength.
The words "base" and "balance" are often used interchangeably, but to me, balance is a slightly different concept.
The dictionary defines balance as "stability produced by even distribution of weight on each side of the vertical axis" and "the ability to retain one's balance."
The dictionary doesn't really have a definition for base as we use it, though the closest one is "the bottom of something considered as its support," which is comes from the word's use in architecture (like the base of a building or column).
I define balance is the ability to use one's sense of gravity to stay on top and maintain position.
Of course, that's usually done by maintaining a good base, but I believe you can have balance in moments where you lack base, like being able to ride sweeps or throw without being flipped. If you break it down in slow-mo, this balance is usually because they maintain a sense of their base while in the air, and they adjust themselves so they land in base, or in a way that lets them quickly regain their base.
What we mean by "good base" also factors in the the context (like a self defense situation) or rules of our sport. You see wrestlers achieve incredibly base by going bellydown and throwing their arms and legs out like starfish to prevent themselves from being flipped over and scored against. That will get you destroyed anywhere else, but hey, great base!
As people are already bringing up, there are different approaches to mainting base and balance (active, dynamic, static, slow, fast, etc.), and how posture ties into all this.
I'll try to get Sloth (Josh Vogel) in on this since he has an instructional series through www.bjjworkouts.com that focuses on very core concepts of base, balance, and posture.
The class started with the technical stand-up, which I told them is also called "standing up in base." I realized more white belts don't get what "base" means so I explained it explicitly.
I had them do a very simple drill to understand their base and balance. They just stood with their arms up in a basic defensive stance, and their partner walked around pushing and pull on them. They have to try to sink their hips and adjust their feet to keep a strong base. They lose when they are tipped over, usually when their head or hips end up in front of their toes or behind their heels.
That's a very, very simple drill, and boring to anyone with any experience, but I've found it to be a good for totally green white belts like I was teaching.
There are ways to stand up without base, like trying to hop straight to your feet and stand up with your feet together, which I had them try while their partner pushed on them. They kept stumbling and falling back down until they did the correct "stand up in base."
They were also learning the basic Gracie Jiu-Jitsu 101 clinch which has a strong emphasis on "base." You can almost hear Rorion say "base" every time you drill these because he drove that point so hard in the old VHS tapes.
From the clinch, I'd have their partner try to bully them, trip them up, and toss them around. They had to find how to position themselves so they weren't easily affected or off-balanced, while also being able to pressure and control their partner.
I define base as how you position yourself to maintain your balance and connect yourself to the ground. Your base is often on your feet or knees, but it can use your hands, elbows, shoulders, or head.
Your base can be connected to your opponent, like posting a hand on their hips, or your chest against their chest. Having your base on your opponent also be dangerous because then their motion can disrupt it, but this connection is also what allows you to apply pressure and control them.
A solid base tends to be wide with a low center of gravity. That center is usually in your hips, which is why sinking and dropping them down is so emphasized.
Good sweeps attack the opponent's base to off-balance them. If you can't break their base, then the sweep will be difficult and require too much effort and strength.
The words "base" and "balance" are often used interchangeably, but to me, balance is a slightly different concept.
The dictionary defines balance as "stability produced by even distribution of weight on each side of the vertical axis" and "the ability to retain one's balance."
The dictionary doesn't really have a definition for base as we use it, though the closest one is "the bottom of something considered as its support," which is comes from the word's use in architecture (like the base of a building or column).
I define balance is the ability to use one's sense of gravity to stay on top and maintain position.
Of course, that's usually done by maintaining a good base, but I believe you can have balance in moments where you lack base, like being able to ride sweeps or throw without being flipped. If you break it down in slow-mo, this balance is usually because they maintain a sense of their base while in the air, and they adjust themselves so they land in base, or in a way that lets them quickly regain their base.
What we mean by "good base" also factors in the the context (like a self defense situation) or rules of our sport. You see wrestlers achieve incredibly base by going bellydown and throwing their arms and legs out like starfish to prevent themselves from being flipped over and scored against. That will get you destroyed anywhere else, but hey, great base!
As people are already bringing up, there are different approaches to mainting base and balance (active, dynamic, static, slow, fast, etc.), and how posture ties into all this.
I'll try to get Sloth (Josh Vogel) in on this since he has an instructional series through www.bjjworkouts.com that focuses on very core concepts of base, balance, and posture.
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Thanks for that. I am interested in those concepts and how the internal arts might be helpful to create a better dynamic/spiraling base. I'll look up Ba Gua later. Thanks again...
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Once you're on your back, I don't think base really matters. Having your arm isolated for an american is more an issue of posture (as defined as "how you have your body and each limb positioned") or more specifically arm positioning.
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Cool. Thanks for contributing, Aesopian! I look forward to discussing this more later. It's time for me to head to practice and work on my base! :icon_chee or posture or however that elusive concept that is the most important part of jiu jitsu is defined...
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damn i thought it was about to get real on Sherdog, start talking about Base!
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I haven't done as much in recent years, but when I was doing a lot of Tai Chi it really helped my grappling. My school did a lot of push hands though, which is important for actually learning to work with energy (not all do).
