can you get CTE from just training?

[browng210]

Uh how exactly is that even comparatively the same. You can usually recover from pulling your hamstring. You do not recover from the effects of brain trauma (i.e. being punched in the head) - brains cells do not regenerate (at present).

Again you're comparing basketball or any other secular sport to combat sports where you get punched in the head? How is that even remotely the same? How are you coming to the conclusion that you have equal chance of getting brain damage bouncing a ball up and down & shooting hoops in comparison to someone literally punching you in the head repeatedly lol. I could understand the comparison if it was rugby or american football (where brain trauma is equally as common as combat sports) but there are very few sports that will give you cte or brain trauma on the level of combat sports.

We all love training here but let's not bullshit or beat around the bush. You will get irreparable damage to the brain from training (sparring specifically) - the degree to which you will get it as others have said depends on a variety of factors. There is a very good chance you won't get any severe effects from the trauma you do accumulate short-term but obviously there is a chance you could develop issues in the longer term - (the jury is out on whether brain trauma accumulated during training increases the likelihood of other long term health issues associated with the brain like dementia etc). You either make peace with it and carry on training. Or if you can't switch to something less harmful to your brain.

CTE is not blown out of proportion these days. Most brain trauma is not physically discernible - it only becomes so when the damage done is severe. I'm sure most of us in here who have been training for a while have minor trauma - it most likely will result in no issues from day to day life but no-one here can be confident that no issues will arise or that it won't contribute to issues or a higher likelihood of issues later on in life. Just saying it how it is.

I'd recommend actually reading some of the research out there - it's very eye opening.

I'm not comparing a hamstring to a brain. I'm comparing activities and the injuries associated with those activities. If you never want brain damage then not getting hit in the head voluntarily is a good idea. The point I am making is that people who tend to want to train martial arts are into intense activity, and nobody can say that you are more likely to receive brain damage doing striking training than you being competitive and doing other sports, and that the skills and benefits you receive from knowing how to fight have real world value.

I guess I should have been more specific that the way I train (I no longer compete) is smart, we rarely connect with full power and my partners have all been training for years. I know people who have received concussions from collisions playing basketball at the YMCA, riding bikes, motocross, etc. But I have trained grappling and striking for 7 years and I've witnessed a few times guys have concussion like symptoms in hundreds and hundreds of sparring rounds. You understand that it is a risk and do your best to take care of your partners and yourself. If you train with like minded people, then in my personal experience you are about as likely to get tuned up going in against Larry down the street for a layup in a heated pickup game. Getting punched in the head does not necessarily mean that you won't be able to find your keys in 10 years. It CAN happen, just like accidents with other sports, but there aren't numbers on any percentage of people who have problems. Everybody knows the guy who is punchy and talks a little different, but in combat sports circles you also know 30 guys to the one punchy guy who are just fine, at least I do.

Basically everything that is fun and active, has a risk of scrambling your brain. If you are worried enough to start a forum thread about CTE associated with striking training, then you most likely won't be able to dedicate yourself to striking and get to the point where it's fun and you are learning.

Some folks have given examples of how many things you can get brain damage from doing: water skiing, snowboarding, racing of any kind, football, lacrosse, rugby, soccer, and of course martial arts. Yes I can compare other sports with martial arts, because it's not about getting punched in the head, it's about your brain sloshing around in your skull, the instrument by which your brain sloshes around is irrelevant to this argument and to a human brain. I don't believe any of us are scientists here on Sherdog, but I do know that you are not guaranteed to have mush brain if you train striking, and you're not guaranteed not to have mush brain if you don't. The benefits far outweigh the risks for me. Honestly, knowing how to fight is one of the most under-appreciated skills to have in this world. I'll use the example again, if you and your lady are leaving a restaurant and some guy jumps you on the way to the car, and you don't know how to defend her and yourself, he might knock you out and kick you in the face repeatedly after he's KO'd you, that is a reality in our world. I understand my mentality is different than some, but that's why I train, and that's my opinion on CTE and combat sports as it effects me.

To summarize:
You can't cite facts that tell me that I'll have noticeable brain damage if I train and spar.

You can't tell me that I won't get brain damage doing other activities.

You can't cite facts that tell me training and sparring is more dangerous to my brain than other sports in general.

I can't cite facts that tell you I'll never get CTE or that striking training is safe

We are not sedentary people, guys (& gals) who train martial arts like to be active and are drawn to sports and extreme activities

Train smart with like-minded partners

I am giving actual examples from my life

Training martial arts is awesome and the skills and confidence I have (to me) is more than worth the risk of brain damage

TS should not train striking if he's worried about getting brain damage, he should learn to grapple and hope he never catches an accidental elbow or get in a fight where punches may be thrown

 

[Sano]

Edit: Sinister is right. Present research shows that brain trauma has a higher occurrence in American football (bashing into someone with momentum & bodweight vs leverage from a punch or a kick is very different imo). Tbh there isn't enough research on brain trauma in combat sports - nowhere near enough. I wouldn't be surprised in future if combat sports like mma/boxing/kickboxing were found to have very similar levels of brain trauma occurring - might not be as much as football but I'd imagine it to be a very close second.

Can you link the studies/data? I couldn't find anything about the prevalence and occurrence. Only that a tackle had more force, but that doesn't take into account the volume of damage taken.

Another thing, how often do you see someone get knocked out in American football? Not that that is the only, or necessarily most important, marker.

 

[Sinister]

I wouldn't be surprised if american football had a higher incidence of brain trauma - like you said it's people crashing into each other at full force. The problem with combat sports though is that there isn't enough extensive research on the effects of trauma in combat sports like mma, kickboxing or boxing - not nearly enough - although what is available quite clearly shows that a good number of participants have some sort of damage.

Personally I think the percentages of people developing some kind of long term health issues from training are probably very high (especially those that have done it for years) - it may not lead to direct complications but increase the likelihood of getting other brain related diseases. A research paper I read not to long back tested amateur boxers and physically measured brain activity & the levels of differing proteins in the brain (brain damage markers) - at varying times after a bout and it was concluded that over 80% had suffered brain & neurological damage:




It's the most comprehensive research paper I've read so far - if I can find the link I'll post it for you guys to read.


Edit: Sinister is right. Present research shows that brain trauma has a higher occurrence in American football (bashing into someone with momentum & bodweight vs leverage from a punch or a kick is very different imo). Tbh there isn't enough research on brain trauma in combat sports - nowhere near enough. I wouldn't be surprised in future if combat sports like mma/boxing/kickboxing were found to have very similar levels of brain trauma occurring - might not be as much as football but I'd imagine it to be a very close second.

I'd like to see the paper mainly because I'd like to know the parameters they use as "brain damage." Because if it's improper neurological signaling, than damn near anything causes brain damage. Sleeping too little, studying too long, watching too much TV, using your cell phone, etc.

Symptomatic concussive damage is different, but then again a lot of stuff can cause that as well. Any sport where your head is jostled around. Human heads are just not designed to do that. Hell head-banging at a metal concert for too long...

All that said, I'm reminded of something Matt Hoffman once said when asked about why he was so willing to beat himself nearly to death for his goals on something as silly as jumping ramps on a bicycle. He said: "I'm only going to live this life in this body once, and if I die with everything intact and nothing damaged, I'll feel like I didn't live it at all." Kinda hit home with me. A-la Tyler Durden: "I don't wanna die without any scars."

 

[Sinister]

Can you link the studies/data? I couldn't find anything about the prevalence and occurrence. Only that a tackle had more force, but that doesn't take into account the volume of damage taken.

Another thing, how often do you see someone get knocked out in American football? Not that that is the only, or necessarily most important, marker.

I don't have time to dig up everything, including the Cleveland Clinic's data, but this is just among kids. Boxing isn't listed among the Sports, but look at the statement regarding Emergency Room visits for concussions:

http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports

Football is a scourge to American heads, and yet boxing gets demonized for being brutal. I have this discussion with parents all the time who are perfectly willing to let their kid play HS football, but are worried about boxing. I've seen ONE concussion case where someone had to go to the Hospital in my Gym in the past 5 years, vs. the skyrocketing number of football players.

Also, a fast KO is not an indicator. Most concussive damage is worsened by NOT being knocked out. The knockout mechanism is designed to preserve brain health. Your body shuts down and puts you on the floor so you don't get killed. Taking prolonged beatings is much worse.

 

[Sano]

I don't have time to dig up everything, including the Cleveland Clinic's data, but this is just among kids. Boxing isn't listed among the Sports, but look at the statement regarding Emergency Room visits for concussions:

http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports

Football is a scourge to American heads, and yet boxing gets demonized for being brutal. I have this discussion with parents all the time who are perfectly willing to let their kid play HS football, but are worried about boxing. I've seen ONE concussion case where someone had to go to the Hospital in my Gym in the past 5 years, vs. the skyrocketing number of football players.

Also, a fast KO is not an indicator. Most concussive damage is worsened by NOT being knocked out. The knockout mechanism is designed to preserve brain health. Your body shuts down and puts you on the floor so you don't get killed. Taking prolonged beatings is much worse.

The knockout thing was more in regards to force being delivered. Sustained damage can definitely be much worse.

Very interesting statistics, or rather scary. Would be nice if they cited their sources so they could be read as well, as they're not a governing body.

The doubling in emergency visits sounds troubling, are more kids playing American football? Sometimes numbers like that can be inflated especially as doctors get better at diagnosing, more kids play or parents get more aware of brain health or risks in sports. Something must be up with reported concussion numbers rising like that.

We don't play American football over here, so MMA and Boxing are viewed as the worst. The neurologist I visited said that they can't endorse any full contact combat sport at all. It must be tough having to battle the stigma as a coach, but boxing is a dangerous sport. Let's not kid ourselves, boxing is definitely up there as one of the worst, if not the worst one, along with American football. So many gyms out there who has the caveman mentality. It's all about minimizing damage, at some point your time is up.

I love boxing btw, you know that. I would let my kids box as well (when I have some), but I would be very aware of using strict concussion protocols and even then there's no guarantee. That said, what you're doing with your guys, teaching them how to deal with punches, how to defend effectively, and making sure they're ready is the best course of action. I wish I was taught like that instead of just blocking punches with my face and being too stubborn to take a break.

 

[Bekim]

Just to highlight what Sinister said, its actually worse, combat sports have medical suspensions after fights, how many partial concussions go unnoticed or treated on some players, game after game in American football.

 

[Sano]

Just to highlight what Sinister said, its actually worse, combat sports have medical suspensions after fights, how many partial concussions go unnoticed or treated on some players, game after game in American football.

Only at the top level, and only for stoppages, right? I mean, there are many who fight several times a year as pros and that's with perhaps tens or even hundreds of amateur fights. Even then you can have your suspension lifted by a doctor. Plenty of unnoticed or untreated concussions in the fight game. A regular CAT scan or MRI can't even detect a concussion, unless you have internal bleeding. Even a neurological screening wont be positive most of the time. Smaller gyms, regional shows, amateur circuit, even how they spar at some of the bigger gyms. There's a lot of guys out there that are basicly fodder, used as pawns for better guys, and they are wasted in the gym before their career can even get off.

Remember the doghouse vid at the Mayweather gym?

 

[Bekim]

Only at the top level, and only for stoppages, right? I mean, there are many who fight several times a year as pros and that's with perhaps tens or even hundreds of amateur fights. Even then you can have your suspension lifted by a doctor. Plenty of unnoticed or untreated concussions in the fight game. A regular CAT scan or MRI can't even detect a concussion, unless you have internal bleeding. Even a neurological screening wont be positive most of the time. Smaller gyms, regional shows, amateur circuit, even how they spar at some of the bigger gyms. There's a lot of guys out there that are basicly fodder, used as pawns for better guys, and they are wasted in the gym before their career can even get off.

Remember the doghouse vid at the Mayweather gym?

No, not just for stoppages.

I agree but how long have people demonised combat sports especially boxing, when worse goes on in other sports, with the average amount of games for the NFL at 16 games over a 17 week period, per team, that's a lot of potential.

My point is let's look past combat sports and at sports in general, try to keep our sports people healthy, they put their health on the line for our entertainment

 

[PivotPunch]

@Sinister

Obviously you can't give 100% sure medical advise but what is your opinion on headgear? Beside facial damage just speaking about protecting the brain. Apparently there are studies that headgear does reduce the force of medium hard shots but only those where the head gets knocked back and not from rotational forces like when the head twists from hooks or uppercuts.

But the arguments against are worse vision, a bigger target, whiplash and things like that.

Do you personally think it makes things safer, less safe or it doesn't matter?

 

[Azam]

I'd like to see the paper mainly because I'd like to know the parameters they use as "brain damage." Because if it's improper neurological signaling, than damn near anything causes brain damage. Sleeping too little, studying too long, watching too much TV, using your cell phone, etc.

Symptomatic concussive damage is different, but then again a lot of stuff can cause that as well. Any sport where your head is jostled around. Human heads are just not designed to do that. Hell head-banging at a metal concert for too long...

All that said, I'm reminded of something Matt Hoffman once said when asked about why he was so willing to beat himself nearly to death for his goals on something as silly as jumping ramps on a bicycle. He said: "I'm only going to live this life in this body once, and if I die with everything intact and nothing damaged, I'll feel like I didn't live it at all." Kinda hit home with me. A-la Tyler Durden: "I don't wanna die without any scars."

The link to the research paper is below:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0033606

It was quite a comprehensive study. It was done before/after bouts so you can specifically link any neurological or brain changes to the actual boxing bout. They did say that most of the acute injuries can recover with adequate rest but without adequate rest the effects add on & become more degenerative to the point that there are neurological/brain chemistry changes. The rest periods depended on the extent of injury & the individual. You can check some of the rest periods they tested.

I think the research paper shows that boxing bouts aren't really the problem but repetitive sparring during training where adequate rest is not really given before getting back in there again.

I agree I think it's important that people know our brains/heads aren't designed to be jostled around. Like you said you could do that shaking your head at a heavy metal concert.

I can understand the I'm only going to live once sentiment - my sentiment is very similar to yours.

Can you link the studies/data? I couldn't find anything about the prevalence and occurrence. Only that a tackle had more force, but that doesn't take into account the volume of damage taken.

Another thing, how often do you see someone get knocked out in American football? Not that that is the only, or necessarily most important, marker.

I'll have a look if I can find the research paper. The one above about boxing I read not long ago and it took nearly 30 mins looking for it.

Concussions are actually very common in rugby & American football. Less people are getting knocked out but the concussive system are still there.

Funnily enough there was an article I read a while back (it might have been a research paper can't remember) which suggested that MMA may have a higher rate of brain injury - they pointed to statistics that the knockdown/tko occurrence in MMA was larger than boxing.

 

[Azam]

Just to highlight what Sinister said, its actually worse, combat sports have medical suspensions after fights, how many partial concussions go unnoticed or treated on some players, game after game in American football.

True but the issue could be also brought up for sparring in combat sports. How many partial concussions go unnoticed or untreated after a sparring session?

At least with competitive bouts or fights there is a medical suspension to allow recovery. American football also now have medical staff that are there to monitor players health so it's not as bad as before.

Also something that no-one brought up is the additional effect of weight cutting that makes brain trauma significantly worse for combat athletes. Boxing in that respect is much better than MMA & kickboxing.

In day to day training for most of us - how many of us are actually sustaining mild or minor concussion or brain trauma that's not physically visible or that we are unaware of - only to have another sparring session without adequate rest and thereby developing more cumulative brain injuries (injuries that add up) which most studies have shown to be a hell of a lot worse for you.

 

[Ivica Truscek]

take bjj or yoga instead and leave boxing to the men.

Id say BJJ is fighting for smart people...
If youre worried about brain damage even before starting, than you probably belong in that group...

 

[Sano]

Id say BJJ is fighting for smart people...
If youre worried about brain damage even before starting, than you probably belong in that group...

Truscek in the house! Big fan over here. I've trained at Rumblesports on and off for a little while so I remember your fights with Dalby well.