can you get CTE from just training?

[black belch]

I love striking, and I've been wanting to start training boxing or kickboxing, but all the brain trauma stories scare me

If you train for 5+ years, will you get brain damage? I heard using the helmet sometimes is worse..

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

Yes, you can get brain damage from training but if you're training smart you'll be fine.

 

[Azam]

Almost certain you'll get brain trauma from training - hopefully - it won't cause long term issues. It entirely depends on training frequency, how smart you train, how often/intense you spar and your genetics.

A minority of those who train develop serious long term health problems that is directly associated to their training. Most people that train will have differing degrees of brain trauma (that is not physically evident) that may or may not manifest and contribute to health problems later on in life. It's very difficult to say.

Like for example you'd think someone like Jake La Motta would have serious CTE (number of fights, being a slugger & the amount of punches he ate) but he doesn't. I remember him saying that he rolled with a lot of the punches - I think though genetics probably had a lot to do with it also.

The reality is getting punched in the head is definitely not good for your brain.

 

[Gregolian]

You can also get brain trauma from slipping and falling on ice.

Look at Micky Ward. At least the last I saw of him that guy doesn't have a slurring issue or anything but the last time I saw him speaking on a camera was when Gatti got inducted into the HoF.

 

[j123]

Depends on the gym, if its one of those Chute Box / Miletich type gyms where gym wars are the norm, then yes you'll get head trauma. If you do find a gym where they prescribe to "thai-styled" spars (30-50% power) then you should be good. I've been at it for about 5 years now, competed for 2, never been KOed or concussed. I've come to accept its a part of the sport and will happen down the line eventually.

Headgear is worse, it:

• restricts vision
• harder to breathe with. My last fight it felt like someone was RNC'ng me
• gives whiplash (added weight of the headgear, and getting your head snapped back over and over is the same effect)
• false sense of confidence: people assume its protecting them, and purposely take shots thinking its fine

 

[black belch]

Yeah, changed my mind
no way im training

 

[j123]

Yeah, changed my mind
no way im training

Don't think about it that way, when you start out, you're on pads, heavybag, etc for awhile. About maybe 4-6 months in, if your coach(s) feel you're ready, you'll begin sparring. Its a slow transition, its not like you'll be thrown in the deep end right off the bat.

Again, it depends on the gym, do your research and find a suitable one that matches you.

 

[Azam]

Depends on the gym, if its one of those Chute Box / Miletich type gyms where gym wars are the norm, then yes you'll get head trauma. If you do find a gym where they prescribe to "thai-styled" spars (30-50% power) then you should be good. I've been at it for about 5 years now, competed for 2, never been KOed or concussed. I've come to accept its a part of the sport and will happen down the line eventually.

That's rare. Good on you though. I've been concussed a few times mainly from catching a kick to the head less so from punches.

Yeah, changed my mind
no way im training

Maybe look into semi contact striking arts (you do a good amount of semi contact sparring in those arts). You learn the distancing/timing & other stuff minus the brain trauma or concussion. Then do something full contact sparring every now & then (once a week or once every two weeks) - pretty much what I've started doing. But then again I've trained full contact for many years.

Or just find a good gym where they train smart.

 

[j123]

That's rare. Good on you though. I've been concussed a few times mainly from catching a kick to the head less so from punches.

Like TS when I first started out I was REAL paranoid about brain damage, so I actually have a very solid tight guard developed from that. It was bad on my end because I'd focus so much on shelling my head that people would wreck my body. I'm alot better these days so I retaliate and shift my defenses a bit.

A couple of my teammates got bad concussions in their fights. It'll happen to me sooner or later, esp. since I like competing and plan to compete until I can't do so anymore.

Its always the shots that you don't see, that get you. To be fair, those Kyokushin borderline-clinch ranged headkicks come out of nowhere.

 

[wilddeuces]

Any time your brain is getting bounced around CTE can develop. A few things contribute to this: measure of impact, frequency of impact, and genes. Some guys can live to almost one hundred, speak coherently, and knock out muggers with their bare fists (read up on Jack Dempsey). Jake LaMotta looked like a shameless slugger, but he could slip better than he was given credit for, and plus, after all those fights, his brain held up too. In the 80's he was old, but still well-spoken. Genes go a long way. Muhammad Ali wasn't in as many fights as other guys, but fate had his number. He got Parkinson's and who knows if it would have simply developed later in life had he never boxed. Michael J. Fox was never a fighter and look at him, regrettably. Genes are a factor, but how you fight, goes a long way too (same reason some people can smoke for years and run miles against a healthy pair of lungs that can't keep up - just genetic). The two go hand in hand. You know what they say about each individual fighter: you've only got so many fights in you. There's something to that. Knowing how to diminish a punch, rather than let it land full force, helps. Size of gloves helps (bigger guys spar with 16oz gloves), and anybody that says it doesn't should ask themselves why boxers admit to feeling the difference in power and effect when the glove size varies.

I'm reticent to say that head gear doesn't help. Get the right kind of head gear for your skill level and purpose. NEVER or DON'T are strong words, especially when it comes to one individual taking what works for them and projecting it onto others. Even high level boxers will use certain head gear, and it's not because they want a sense of false safety. It's not what you use, it's how you use it. Find a piece of head gear that suits your needs, but don't accept it as part of your defense. That's imprudent. You don't buckle up before you drive hoping to get into an accident, right? You be proactive, because that's what you ought to always be.

So, short answer: spar smart, accept that you will get hit. You have to make friends with the fact that your brain is going to get rattled like an etch-a-sketch. That doesn't mean you can't try to fight smart, just don't fight scared. If you can't handle that then you like the idea of striking, but not actually doing it. On some level you've gotta make friends with the pain.

 

[Sinister]

If the idea of being hurt, in a Sport where the object to hurt, frightens you, then that Sport is not for you.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

Don't think about it that way, when you start out, you're on pads, heavybag, etc for awhile. About maybe 4-6 months in, if your coach(s) feel you're ready, you'll begin sparring. Its a slow transition, its not like you'll be thrown in the deep end right off the bat.

Again, it depends on the gym, do your research and find a suitable one that matches you.

If the guy is that scared of CTE to begin with, I don't think full contact fighting is for him.

 

[bad seed]

take bjj or yoga instead and leave boxing to the men.

 

[guard_passer]

you can get cte from waterskiing

take bjj or yoga instead and leave boxing to the men.

this. BJJ is for the guys who want to claim they are alphas without taking real damage. then they dive into the lifestyle adopt a slight Brazilian accent and throw up the Shaka everytime they take a pic

 

[j123]

...then they dive into the lifestyle adopt a slight Brazilian accent and throw up the Shaka overtime they take a pic

fuckin lol

 

[browng210]

Thinking about CTE before you start training, that's like thinking about pulling a hamstring so you never ride a bike? If you love to train and you're not a dummy (or training with dummies), then you have probably an equal chance of getting brain damage in martial arts as you would playing basketball or any other secular sport.
When it all comes down to it, knowing how to defend myself and keep calm in hairy situations outweighs the risk of CTE. But I really think CTE is blown out of proportion these days. People google too damn much, when I started training I went to K-Mart and bought a set of junk gloves and started wailing on the heavy bag at the Sheriff's Office gym (I'm a former Corrections Officer), somebody saw how crappy I was and pointed me in the direction of my local martial arts gym. I got lucky and the instructor was great and is on of my best friends now. I don't have CTE, I've been hit good and hard, never shut off or concussed. The bottom line is martial arts is the best thing that ever happened to me, and who wants to be the guy who is getting his face smashed in on the street because he thought if he learned how to fight he might get is face smashed in?

 

[Azam]

Thinking about CTE before you start training, that's like thinking about pulling a hamstring so you never ride a bike? If you love to train and you're not a dummy (or training with dummies), then you have probably an equal chance of getting brain damage in martial arts as you would playing basketball or any other secular sport.
When it all comes down to it, knowing how to defend myself and keep calm in hairy situations outweighs the risk of CTE. But I really think CTE is blown out of proportion these days. People google too damn much, when I started training I went to K-Mart and bought a set of junk gloves and started wailing on the heavy bag at the Sheriff's Office gym (I'm a former Corrections Officer), somebody saw how crappy I was and pointed me in the direction of my local martial arts gym. I got lucky and the instructor was great and is on of my best friends now. I don't have CTE, I've been hit good and hard, never shut off or concussed. The bottom line is martial arts is the best thing that ever happened to me, and who wants to be the guy who is getting his face smashed in on the street because he thought if he learned how to fight he might get is face smashed in?

Uh how exactly is that even comparatively the same. You can usually recover from pulling your hamstring. You do not recover from the effects of brain trauma (i.e. being punched in the head) - brains cells do not regenerate (at present).

Again you're comparing basketball or any other secular sport to combat sports where you get punched in the head? How is that even remotely the same? How are you coming to the conclusion that you have equal chance of getting brain damage bouncing a ball up and down & shooting hoops in comparison to someone literally punching you in the head repeatedly lol. I could understand the comparison if it was rugby or american football (where brain trauma is equally as common as combat sports) but there are very few sports that will give you cte or brain trauma on the level of combat sports.

We all love training here but let's not bullshit or beat around the bush. You will get irreparable damage to the brain from training (sparring specifically) - the degree to which you will get it as others have said depends on a variety of factors. There is a very good chance you won't get any severe effects from the trauma you do accumulate short-term but obviously there is a chance you could develop issues in the longer term - (the jury is out on whether brain trauma accumulated during training increases the likelihood of other long term health issues associated with the brain like dementia etc). You either make peace with it and carry on training. Or if you can't switch to something less harmful to your brain.

CTE is not blown out of proportion these days. Most brain trauma is not physically discernible - it only becomes so when the damage done is severe. I'm sure most of us in here who have been training for a while have minor trauma - it most likely will result in no issues from day to day life but no-one here can be confident that no issues will arise or that it won't contribute to issues or a higher likelihood of issues later on in life. Just saying it how it is.

I'd recommend actually reading some of the research out there - it's very eye opening.

 

[Sinister]

FWIW, brain trauma is higher in American football. Not equal. Especially considering how long the NFL has been covering up the data and that as late as last year, they got caught covering up more data. Getting punched isn't quite as severe as running at each other full speed with crash helmets on, and many guys now have been doing that since they were kids in the PeeWee leagues.

 

[Sano]

FWIW, brain trauma is higher in American football. Not equal. Especially considering how long the NFL has been covering up the data and that as late as last year, they got caught covering up more data. Getting punched isn't quite as severe as running at each other full speed with crash helmets on, and many guys now have been doing that since they were kids in the PeeWee leagues.

Any research on that? I'm thinking it's almost impossible to determine.

A punch might not have the same power behind it as a linebacker running into you with full speed, but a well placed punch has enough concussive force to shut the lights off. Factor in the volume of punches to the head boxers experience in training, sparring and fighting. It's a sport specificly geared towards concussing your opponent.

Obviously it depends on the gym as well. The culture, the trainers and how well the students can defend themselves. Tough man gyms with little regard for defense probably has it the worst. Same as in football it probably depends on what position the player is in and how physical he is.

 

[Azam]

FWIW, brain trauma is higher in American football. Not equal. Especially considering how long the NFL has been covering up the data and that as late as last year, they got caught covering up more data. Getting punched isn't quite as severe as running at each other full speed with crash helmets on, and many guys now have been doing that since they were kids in the PeeWee leagues.

I wouldn't be surprised if american football had a higher incidence of brain trauma - like you said it's people crashing into each other at full force. The problem with combat sports though is that there isn't enough extensive research on the effects of trauma in combat sports like mma, kickboxing or boxing - not nearly enough - although what is available quite clearly shows that a good number of participants have some sort of damage.

Personally I think the percentages of people developing some kind of long term health issues from training are probably very high (especially those that have done it for years) - it may not lead to direct complications but increase the likelihood of getting other brain related diseases. A research paper I read not to long back tested amateur boxers and physically measured brain activity & the levels of differing proteins in the brain (brain damage markers) - at varying times after a bout and it was concluded that over 80% had suffered brain & neurological damage:

'Our study shows that after bouts, some of the boxers had elevated concentrations of four different proteins in the brain fluid, which all signal damage to the brain's nerve cells,' says Sanna Neselius, a researcher at Sahlgrenska Academy and the lead author of the study. 'Moreover, two of the proteins were still elevated after a period of rest.'

The data revealed that more than three quarters of the boxers exhibited protein changes that point to brain damage.

'The brain injury markers were elevated for 80% of the Olympic boxers directly after a bout as a result of minor brain damage,' Dr Neselius explains. 'That the brain fluid markers were elevated even after weeks of rest for some of the boxers can be interpreted as the damage had yet not healed or that some damage will remain.

It's the most comprehensive research paper I've read so far - if I can find the link I'll post it for you guys to read.


Edit: Sinister is right. Present research shows that brain trauma has a higher occurrence in American football (bashing into someone with momentum & bodweight vs leverage from a punch or a kick is very different imo). Tbh there isn't enough research on brain trauma in combat sports - nowhere near enough. I wouldn't be surprised in future if combat sports like mma/boxing/kickboxing were found to have very similar levels of brain trauma occurring - might not be as much as football but I'd imagine it to be a very close second.