Can someone tell me the difference between Kenpo/Shotokan/Kyokushin?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by DoomsdayFAN**, May 10, 2008.

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  1. DoomsdayFAN** Banned

    DoomsdayFAN**
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    Overall, I was wondering what exactly is the difference between these three types of Karate? I dont want to be lame by thinking "Karate is just Karate." Which one is best for what?
     
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  2. TREE_TRUNK Orange Belt

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  3. NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Shotokan is best for standing in front of a mirror practicing stances and defensive techniques that will never work in combat or competition, as well as doing ancient Okinawan Folk Dances known as "kata" where you have another outlet for practicing techniques that won't work outside the dojo. (I have a BB in Shotokan, lucky me...) If you are looking for old school traditional Karate it is A+, for fighting it is C- (see Lyoto Machida for a very notable exception to this, though)

    Kenpo is like Shotokan except with a pseudo chinese or (allegedly) Hawaiian influence and black Gi with more corny patches. There are several different flavors. The tend to spar more than Shotokan which is better for fighting. They get in lots of pissing contests about which school/lineage is the more "authentic". They teach goofy "secret" pressure point shit that everyone else in the world already knows about and doesn't work well anyway. They seem to think that "flurries" (also known as combinations everywhere else in the combat world) are some kind of original technique, but at least they do teach combos. The footwork is marginally more useful than TMAs that don't spar much. For TMA I give it about a B. For fighting about a C+.

    Kyokushin was the original bare knuckle full contact style started by Mas Oyama. It has also split into several styles. Back in the day it was the shizzle. After waaaaaay too many hand and facial injuries the main style of Kyokushin banned closed fist punches to the head in competition, resulting in it becoming sort of like half-assed Tae Kwon Do. If you can find a Kyokushin Dojo that still works punches to the head it is good stuff. Some of the offshoots also incorporate Judo (Kudo) and have their own system of MMA competition. Hard to find in the US though. For TMA I give it a B+ and fighting a solid B (assuming they are teaching sufficient hand techniques and defense).

    If you want good standup and don't care about oriental mysticism, role playing, and wearing costumes try kickboxing or muay thai. Thats just my two cents...
     
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  4. DoomsdayFAN** Banned

    DoomsdayFAN**
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    Do they ever have competitions against eachother?
     
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  5. NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Sure. US Open World NASKA Martial Arts Tournament for point fighting. I'm sure you can find a tournament in your area to watch.

    For full contact you have K-1, ISKA Kickboxing, etc.

    Once you get into professional full contact events practically nobody is using traditional Karate stances, defense, or hand techniques anyway. Which is why you might as well just start off with kickboxing or MT.
     
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  6. TREE_TRUNK Orange Belt

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    dude there was just a point sparring tournament in burbank today at the marriot and as soon as summer rolls around there will plenty more in southern cali
     
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  7. RJ Powell** Banned

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    this may not be the the most popular answer, but it is as true as you can get as far as these arts go.

    I have a red belt in TKD, brown in kyokushin, Black in hawaiian kenpo, and did a little shotokan. Like it or not, all of what this guy is saying is true.

    One a more positive note, my previous TMA training helped me with my balance in the clinch and i have automatic kicking power in muay thai.

    I could've gotten these attributes in a more efficient way though. That is all.

    *waits for flamestorm*, personally i think this guy's post was pretty evenhanded and factual.

    Kenpo guys are ALWAYS feuding against eachother here in hawaii, even though they really can't fight, lol. It's all bullshit. The only time you should wear a gi is when you grapple anyway, or maybe for kyokushin if you want something competitive but don't want to get hit in the face.

    oh yeah, for Muay thai as a TMA i give it an A-(depending on who is teaching it), as a fighting style an A+. So you win all around with muay thai.
     
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  8. mvisit1 Blue Belt

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    That about says it right there...It's not the art is the fighter...If you wanna talk trash about traditional karate, I'm sure Machida or GSP would have a thing or two to say, the same goes for Chuck Liddell and Kenpo.
     
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  9. RJ Powell** Banned

    RJ Powell**
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    i dont think anyone is talking trash about karate, this thread has been very fair in it's judgement thus far.
     
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  10. NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    It's like this, every second of your training life you spend practicing horse stance, and blocks like gedan barai, age uke, shuto uke, etc., are seconds you could spend learning something that might actually work. This is wasted time. A great fighter can overcome inefficient training and techniques but just think how much better he would be if he started out with shit that actually worked?

    Even the best TMA fighters, guys like Lyoto Machida for example, can't make TMA techniques work in combat or competition. Not only do they not work, may of them are self defeating. Blocking full-power, full-contact, low kicks with the hands is a guaranteed way to fuck your hands up and eat lots of tasty counter punches to the head because your hands are too low to defend your head.

    If you like TMA for the "philosophy", the camraderie and the feeling of belonging to some ancient warrior society or something, thats fine. If you want or need to have some skills that actually work in a fight, TMA will not only teach you shit that won't work it will give you bad habits that will take years to unlearn. I know. I started off in Shotokan and TKD, and have fucked around with a bunch of other stuff that doesn't work.

    MMA, pro KB and MT are full of guys that started out in TMA. Almost all of them have transitioned to a style that uses the same basic punching and kicking techniques as well as defense. Its called evolution.

    If you post video of a pro fighter, Lyoto Machida, GSP, or whoever else, in a traditional horse or front stance and using gedan barai or age uke in a fight I will take it all back...
     
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  11. franz_grinder Huggernaut

    franz_grinder
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    I'm a kyokushin-kai under a Midori Blackbelt. I really think people are ignoring the roots of K-1 and the Seido-kaikan. and k-1 stikers with Karate roots as a whole. I'm grateful for my roots. It really helps me out in my cross-training. Obviously, alot of people here are not familier with some of the more current kyokushin world champs. In north america it's been gentrified. Hawaiian Kempo/Kenpo is an unofortunate example. In fact the few schools that accurately represent a decent combat style confuddle me as to why they don't change their name from kenpo/kempo as a whole.

    I cross train alot and I think my Karate stance has even helped me adapt my stance into a more grapple-ready stance for mma. Not unlike GSP's. I've been grappling for a few years now and my flexibility I got from stretching on the karate floors since I was 7 really pays off. I`m not looking to start any type of TMA effectiveness war here though.
     
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  12. mvisit1 Blue Belt

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    Have you ever spent minute after minute in a DEEP horse stand or front stance? Your quads are on fire. I was taught that ancient martial artists used these stances to strengthen the legs because they didn't have dumbbells, olympic bars and 45 lbs plates. I grew up with TKD and NEVER used those stances in a sparring match, keyboard warrior.
     
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  13. devante Silver Belt

    devante
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    I cant agree on the ufc website machida STATES its his karate and how he has tailored it to mma; that is the reason for his success, an all the tech he uses are classical tech, the punches, the kicks, the spacing and the sweeps, trips, and throws.
     
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  14. Tim Chan Amateur Fighter

    Tim Chan
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    you realize that shotokan and kyokushin use almost the exact same kata, and practice stances???
     
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  15. Marvin Covar Amateur Fighter

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    I'd like to see that too.
     
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  16. T.J.T Green Belt

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    I belive you missed his point with that comment, but im sure he will explain it better :icon_chee
     
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  17. NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    I have wasted tons of time in horse stance, my Shodan test required marathon horse stance sessions performing other useless techniques.

    There's something called specificity of training. If you want your legs to be stronger to do certain things, kicking, footwork etc., you have to train them specifically to do that. Training to stand in Horse stance for hours only makes you better at standing in horse stance for hours. Unless we are having a horse stance endurance contest this ability is useless.

    1) You are just making excuses for shit that doesn't work.
    2) If the desire is to make stronger legs for fighting there are tons of old-skool techniques that work a lot better and don't use weights; jump rope, plyo, footwork drills, duckwalk, running, etc.
    3) You still haven't addressed an entire curiculum and theory of defensive techniques that don't work AT ALL. Do these have mystical ancient training benefits also?
    4) Why do TMAs get a free pass for supposedly being "ancient"? O'Sensei Funakoshi brought Karate to mainland Japan in 1921 . Is that ancient? Bare knuckle English boxing goes back at least until 1681. Greek and Roman boxing go back at least a thousand years before that.
     
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  18. NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    I do. Virtually all of the traditional/semi-traditional Karate schools, as well as the Tae Kwon Do and other Korean TMA schools and some of the Chinese Kung Fu schools use many of the same Kata. The Heian/Pinan Kata go back to the Chinese Chiang Nan/Channan Kata that came from China, etc.

    My point was that *if* for some odd reason, you wanted to go the TMA route to learn fighting skills, you are likely to do less Kata and more likely to do increased practical sparring and drilling at a Kyokushin dojo than a traditional Shotokan dojo. That is my experience.
     
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  19. NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Exactly, he tailored it by changing the techniques so they actually work. My point precisely. So why not teach the stuff that works from the beginning?

    I did the same thing Lyoto and other Shotokan Karateka have for generations; learned a bunch of stuff in the Dojo that didn't work and had to adapt it for use in Kumite, then started fighting in tournaments and discovered even more of the stuff I learned in the Dojo didn't work and adapted to even more stuff that did.

    If you do this for long enough you wake up one day and discover that you are basically a self-taught kickboxer. This is not an efficient way to train and requires years of adjusting to unlearn the stuff that doesn't work.
     
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  20. mvisit1 Blue Belt

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    OMFG, you're a genius! You should write a book so that all can be on your plane of enlightenment. We are not worthy.
     
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