Can Opener when rolling ?- experienced grapplers

[WalkerTXranger]

I read through some of the older threads with this topic question.

If two seasoned grapplers (three years or more) are rolling is the controlled neck crank ok? I recently had a issue/concern with the neck crank and was wondering what the general thoughts are.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't have a real problem with it. It's only dangerous if you don't release your closed guard, and it's not a jerky, dangerous neck crank. To me complaining about it is equivalent to complaining about getting your arm broken because you didn't tap to a kimura. You can feel the pressure and have plenty of time to do what's necessary to avoid injury, if you don't you're just being dumb.

People really shouldn't rely on unspoken norms of decorum to protect them. It's like saying heel hooks are dirty and just not learning to defend them and counting on people not to throw them out of some misguided notion of politeness.

 

[SummerStriker]

I don't have a real problem with it. It's only dangerous if you don't release your closed guard, and it's not a jerky, dangerous neck crank. To me complaining about it is equivalent to complaining about getting your arm broken because you didn't tap to a kimura. You can feel the pressure and have plenty of time to do what's necessary to avoid injury, if you don't you're just being dumb.

People really shouldn't rely on unspoken norms of decorum to protect them. It's like saying heel hooks are dirty and just not learning to defend them and counting on people not to throw them out of some misguided notion of politeness.

Okay Musashi.

 

[WalkerTXranger]

I don't have a real problem with it. It's only dangerous if you don't release your closed guard, and it's not a jerky, dangerous neck crank. To me complaining about it is equivalent to complaining about getting your arm broken because you didn't tap to a kimura. You can feel the pressure and have plenty of time to do what's necessary to avoid injury, if you don't you're just being dumb.

People really shouldn't rely on unspoken norms of decorum to protect them. It's like saying heel hooks are dirty and just not learning to defend them and counting on people not to throw them out of some misguided notion of politeness.

Thats kinda of what i was thinking. Somewhat like the guy that says "i am injured lets roll easy" then he springs up to standing pass as soon as the ringer dings.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Thats kinda of what i was thinking. Somewhat like the guy that says "i am injured lets roll easy" then he springs up to standing pass as soon as the ringer dings.

You need to follow the rules of your gym, and many gyms outlaw can openers (which is a mistake IMO, but it's up to them). What you shouldn't ever do is get annoyed about someone using legal techniques just because you think they're someone 'dirty' or 'cheap'. Leg locks, wrist locks, neck cranks, these are often legal at many gyms but there are unspoken norms against using them. I think that's just silly, the right answer is learn to defend them and if you get caught, tap, and don't act as if it's any different than getting RNCed. My last pro fight I got wrist locked. My response wasn't to get shitty with the guy for wrist locking me, it was to admit that that was a huge blind spot in my preparation which hopefully I won't get caught by again on a big stage.

Part of grappling is learning how to defend submissions. You don't do that by relying on the consideration of others to not throw subs you have a low opinion of for some idiotic, biased reason.

 

[TheMood]

In the situation you described I think it is fine since both people are experienced. If you open your guard it doesn't do much to your neck. I do have issues when people use can openers on beginners.

 

[Uchi Mata]

In the situation you described I think it is fine since both people are experienced. If you open your guard it doesn't do much to your neck. I do have issues when people use can openers on beginners.

In general, don't use anything on a beginner that might hurt them if they don't recognize the situation fast enough or don't know what to do. I try to stick to stuff I know they're seen any time I roll with beginners, usually just chokes and arm bars. I don't really even like to hit any kind of shoulder lock on them.

 

[yetanother]

It's complete bullshit. It's not legal under ADCC or IBJJF rules. From having that applied against it you can endure if you are flexible enough (without any neck pain or pressure). Only use seems to be stalling against weaker opponents.

 

[Zefram Cochrane]

You need to follow the rules of your gym, and many gyms outlaw can openers (which is a mistake IMO, but it's up to them). What you shouldn't ever do is get annoyed about someone using legal techniques just because you think they're someone 'dirty' or 'cheap'. Leg locks, wrist locks, neck cranks, these are often legal at many gyms but there are unspoken norms against using them. I think that's just silly, the right answer is learn to defend them and if you get caught, tap, and don't act as if it's any different than getting RNCed. My last pro fight I got wrist locked. My response wasn't to get shitty with the guy for wrist locking me, it was to admit that that was a huge blind spot in my preparation which hopefully I won't get caught by again on a big stage.

Part of grappling is learning how to defend submissions. You don't do that by relying on the consideration of others to not throw subs you have a low opinion of for some idiotic, biased reason.

In the situation you described I think it is fine since both people are experienced. If you open your guard it doesn't do much to your neck. I do have issues when people use can openers on beginners.

These^

In general, don't use anything on a beginner that might hurt them if they don't recognize the situation fast enough or don't know what to do. I try to stick to stuff I know they're seen any time I roll with beginners, usually just chokes and arm bars. I don't really even like to hit any kind of shoulder lock on them.

This point about beginners can't be stressed enough. I remember once a then blue belt at our gym (he's kind of a douche, but that's another story) did that sort of chest crusher Barnett hit against Lister on a white belt who was at his 1st or 2nd week of training iirc. I was catching a breather on the sideline and I remember the white belt giving me a sort of puppy watery eye stare and he was literally turning purple, but didn't tap. I tapped on the blue belt's shoulder and said "it's enough, stop". He didn't seem to take it too kindly and since he wasn't releasing (maybe because he was surprised more than anything else) I gave him a gentle push. Once released, the white belt huffed and puffed and gasped for air, our instructor ran to us visibly concerned and a brief altercation between me and the blue belt ensued.

What really surprised me, but also opened my eyes, was when later the white belt approached me to thank me and I asked him why he didn't tap. He replied that none of his limbs was being torn off and he wasn't being strangled and in his mind he froze, because going by anything he knew about jiu jitsu he wasn't supposed to be in danger.

 

[Peteyandjia]

These^



This point about beginners can't be stressed enough. I remember once a then blue belt at our gym (he's kind of a douche, but that's another story) did that sort of chest crusher Barnett hit against Lister on a white belt who was at his 1st or 2nd week of training iirc. I was catching a breather on the sideline and I remember the white belt giving me a sort of puppy watery eye stare and he was literally turning purple, but didn't tap. I tapped on the blue belt's shoulder and said "it's enough, stop". He didn't seem to take it too kindly and since he wasn't releasing (maybe because he was surprised more than anything else) I gave him a gentle push. Once released, the white belt huffed and puffed and gasped for air, our instructor ran to us visibly concerned and a brief altercation between me and the blue belt ensued.

What really surprised me, but also opened my eyes, was when later the white belt approached me to thank me and I asked him why he didn't tap. He replied that none of his limbs was being torn off and he wasn't being strangled and in his mind he froze, because going by anything he knew about jiu jitsu he wasn't supposed to be in danger.

Respectfully, I think you overreacted, I don't think you should have interfered. If the guy was holding out and not tapping, then that's between them.

 

[fanboysareevil]

Respectfully, I think you overreacted, I don't think you should have interfered. If the guy was holding out and not tapping, then that's between them.

For the recordI think this is wrong and that Zefram did the right thing. Can openers are stupid but should be allowed.

 

[Zefram Cochrane]

Respectfully, I think you overreacted, I don't think you should have interfered. If the guy was holding out and not tapping, then that's between them.

I certainly asked myself if I did and it took me a while, but I came to a different conclusion than yours, eventually. The way the guy needed a couple of minutes to catch his breath and the genuine look of concern in my instructor's eyes, the fact that he told the blue belt in a civil manner to pay more attention to his partners especially the less experienced ones, and that he just told me to leave this event behind and try to remain on good terms with blue belt guy, persuaded me that I reacted within reason. Sometimes one has to make a judgement call. You may get it wrong or right. It's not my habit to interfere, but just ignoring everything that doesn't involve you directly is not reasonable in my opinion.

So, I respectfully take your opinion, but I also respectfully disagree. If we were talking about two blue belts and up, I certainly would have minded my own business. However, if the a white belt on 1st week wasn't stubbornly tapping to an overextended armbar or tight choke and the other guy kept cranking, would we be arguing about this? Maybe, although I think not.

 

[Karihtala]

It's complete bullshit. It's not legal under ADCC or IBJJF rules. From having that applied against it you can endure if you are flexible enough (without any neck pain or pressure). Only use seems to be stalling against weaker opponents.

Can opener is legal under ADCC rules.

 

[Peteyandjia]

if the a white belt on 1st week wasn't stubbornly tapping to an overextended armbar or tight choke and the other guy kept cranking, would we be arguing about this? Maybe, although I think not.

That's kinda my point. The submission in your story (scarf hold chest choke) is not dangerous the same way something like an armbar is. If a whitebelt is being stubborn about a bone-breaker, by all means step in. If they are being stubborn about a choke, I say let them fight it. Both for their sake, and the sake of the person applying the submission (incorrectly, let them learn how to finish it properly).

 

[Tebowned]

Man something about can openers but they really stretch my neck and back good.

Open guard > Knee shield. Worst case scenario > Tap.

 

[Zefram Cochrane]

That's kinda my point. The submission in your story (scarf hold chest choke) is not dangerous the same way something like an armbar is. If a whitebelt is being stubborn about a bone-breaker, by all means step in. If they are being stubborn about a choke, I say let them fight it. Both for their sake, and the sake of the person applying the submission (incorrectly, let them learn how to finish it properly).

Chokes are dangerous, especially if the guy applying them is not paying enough attention to their partner. That sub is dangerous as well, maybe lower percentage but still a real sub. If one is being stubborn because they want to be stubborn, but they have the experience under their belt to recognize they were caught, then it's their call. If they are being stubborn simply because they are new and don't realize they are in a dangerous situation/ a situation they cannot escape, like when they aren't breathing and are close to pass out like in my example, then it's a whole different story. We have to agree to disagree, and that's fine.

 

[Peteyandjia]

Chokes are dangerous, especially if the guy applying them is not paying enough attention to their partner. That sub is dangerous as well, maybe lower percentage but still a real sub. If one is being stubborn because they want to be stubborn, but they have the experience under their belt to recognize they were caught, then it's their call. If they are being stubborn simply because they are new and don't realize they are in a dangerous situation/ a situation they cannot escape, like when they aren't breathing and are close to pass out like in my example, then it's a whole different story. We have to agree to disagree, and that's fine.

That word 'dangerous' in the context of martial arts doesn't really apply to most chokes, with a few exceptions. But yeah I respect your opinion. Also you are erring on the side of caution which I can respect.

 

[Uchi Mata]

For the recordI think this is wrong and that Zefram did the right thing. Can openers are stupid but should be allowed.

I agree. You can tell when someone is just being stubborn vs. when they're panicking. That sub isn't likely to do permanent damage (potentially could crack a rib if the top guy was stron/large enough relative to the bottom guy, but that's a corner case), but a new white belt passing out because he didn't know to tap to a hold he'd never seen is not something you want to have at your gym.

 

[TheMood]

I understand why Zefram did what he did and I agree with it also. I have done similar things in my school when I have been able to see it. If someone is new or something is happening they don't understand I think it is part of my responsibility to help keep them safe as a more experienced student. Others did it for me when I was a beginner and now I have a responsibility to pay it forward.

 

[MaxMMA]

I put neck cranks in the same category as leg locks, if you're not teaching your students how to use them/defend them, you're doing them a huge disservice.

While you're sitting there telling them these move's are dangerous and not to use them, the gym across town is showing their students how to effectively employ them and how to defend against them.

I've lost track of the number of people I've tapped with a can opener just because they didn't know to open their guard and scoot their hips back.