"Boxing is very underated in MMA and Muay Thai is a little overrated." - Jeff Joslin

[CharmingCritic]

Jeff Joslin made an interesting post on a boxing forum that I thought you guys might be interested in:

just curious Jeff, why do you think Muay Thai is a little overrated for MMA?

I think many up & coming fighters are training a lot of Muay Thai without much focus on the optimal punching mechanics that boxing --under the guidance of a great coach of course-- can offer.

A lot more could be learned about footwork, head movement, fighting while moving backwards, relaxing the shoulders and arms while punching, overall punching balance and leverage, multiple punch combinations and a number of other benefits that boxing training would bring to their skill sets.

I just don't think a lot of MMA fighters that are already highly skilled in one area of combat can handle not being great a something right away. So they avoid boxing with skilled boxers and instead spar with other MMA guys who possess average punching ability at best.

If you throw a straight punch in the UFC they call you a good boxer even though it takes so much more than that.

I got a little off track, but my personal opinion is that a strong boxing base blended with the kicks, knees and a little clinch work from Muay Thai is a great mix for standup striking.

I agree completely. Comments?

Save your face! A head movement drill - East Side Boxing Forum

 

[resistance306]

Jeff Joslin made an interesting post on a boxing forum that I thought you guys might be interested in:





I agree completely. Comments?

Save your face! A head movement drill - East Side Boxing Forum

Thanks for the read ts, interesting comment made that I completly agree with.

 

[Centaur]

Yup. As a MT guy, when I moved to a new gym I made a point of finding one that had a good Boxing coach (Golden Gloves champ etc) so that my fighters could learn all the great things that come with that.

 

[ShaolinShaman]

Literally the opposite is true in my eyes. Boxing is great but all the things mentioned are in MT, they just happen to be a little different. Every boxer talks about footwork/head movement when boxing fw and hm is very dangerous in mma. If you pull a james toney ducking move you will be kneed in the face for instance, and if you use traditional boxing footwork (without modifying it) you will be kicked in the legs and topple over. Boxing has something to offer because they focus on punching so much, but it might be the most strict rules of any combat sport and therefore must be altered completely outside of those rules. If boxing has anything- its training equipment. Muay Thai fighters have studied western boxing for a VERY long time and incorporated everything useful when other strikes are involved. I know people bitch about seperating boxing from "mma boxing" training but I think its true, you need to study dirty boxing, I never attend the boxing classes at my gym because the coaches teach us as if we are training to box (some are actually) instead of teaching us dirty modifications of the techniques. Why train like your in the strictest combat sport ever if you are fighting in a versitile one?

In short, boxing is great but I honestly think its the most overrated style in martial arts. Everyone has their own opinion though, nothing personal.

 

[Supereem]

Literally the opposite is true in my eyes. Boxing is great but all the things mentioned are in MT, they just happen to be a little different. Every boxer talks about footwork/head movement when boxing fw and hm is very dangerous in mma. If you pull a james toney ducking move you will be kneed in the face for instance, and if you use traditional boxing footwork (without modifying it) you will be kicked in the legs and topple over. Boxing has something to offer because they focus on punching so much, but it might be the most strict rules of any combat sport and therefore must be altered completely outside of those rules. If boxing has anything- its training equipment. Muay Thai fighters have studied western boxing for a VERY long time and incorporated everything useful when other strikes are involved. I know people bitch about seperating boxing from "mma boxing" training but I think its true, you need to study dirty boxing, I never attend the boxing classes at my gym because the coaches teach us as if we are training to box (some are actually) instead of teaching us dirty modifications of the techniques. Why train like your in the strictest combat sport ever if you are fighting in a versitile one?

In short, boxing is great but I honestly think its the most overrated style in martial arts. Everyone has their own opinion though, nothing personal.

Just focusing on boxing might work today because the standard is so low (as seen with JDS v Gonzaga) , but when fighters Muay Thai improves to a world class level no boxer will be able to stand in the octagon. Im talking K1 level skillsets here, as opposed to average MMA kickboxer boolshit that we see today. Junior Dos Santos for example wouldnt have been able to pull that shit against someone like Badr Hari, nor would Mercer have a chance at KOing people after taking a leg kick.

Boxing trainers however will always be useful to better your hands, but boxing as a base probably isn't the best idea, because against world class mt/kickboxing you wont have much chance. Look at pro boxers success in K1, most of their records are like 2-10 (Although Botha did do fairly well).

 

[ShaolinShaman]

And theres a sport called kickboxing that has figured out how to modify boxing with kicks involved (without takedown defense obv) so why is traditional boxing is so important?

 

[ambertch]

In general this is why I think Jeff's assertion is true: both Muay Thai and boxing have great technical depth, but the area in which boxing has technical depth almost 100% benefits MMA strikers, whereas the area in which Muay Thai has technical depth does not benefit MMA strikers as much

1. A lot of the technical depth in Muay Thai is in the clinch, but for the most part MMA takes its clinch from wrestling, not Muay Thai. On the other hand, because you can't clinch in boxing, the offensive technical depth is more narrowly focused on striking, something which directly benefits MMA striking.
2. Another part of great technical depth in Muay Thai is in the kicking/kick counters, but in MMA punches now do a lot more damage than in previously in combat sports. Again, falling into boxing's specialty.


Boxing also has general and defensive philosophies that are more in line with the way a fight plays out in MMA, such as:
- try to hit without getting hit (a no brainer for MMA striking, since the gloves are so dangerous)
- VAST arsenal of hand feints that mesh VERY WELL with takedown feints (you use your hands to take down an opponent, after all). Obviously you can't fake a kick to a takedown
- (obviously) vast arsenal of hand counters (again super important in MMA striking)
- highly mobile footwork in boxing integrates better with wrestling type footwork. Footwork in Muay Thai doesn't integrate as well with grappling

 

[ambertch]

And theres a sport called kickboxing that has figured out how to modify boxing with kicks involved (without takedown defense obv) so why is traditional boxing is so important?

You just answered your own question with the takedowns.

Takedowns don't just add a ground element - they change the nature of the standup game as well. Namely, takedowns encourage:
- more movement instead of static in-place striking (a hallmark of not just Muay Thai, but competitive kickboxing), which is one of boxing core philosophical strengths I mentioned
- keeping one's feet on the ground (I dunno how much K-1 you've watched, people fall all the time)


Basically, like you said, in normal striking Muay Thai is generally going to beat boxing every time due to the ruleset having more weapons available, but MMA striking has imposed limitations that both partially nullify the advantages of Muay Thai, while at the same time amplifying the advantages of boxing.

 

[CharmingCritic]

I kinda feel like kicking in general is a bit overrated. Kicks end fights rarely compared to punches.

 

[resistance306]

The jab is the most underutilized stike in mma. Also it bugs me a lot when you see figters like Brandon Vera that should try to keep guys like Coutre at the end of there punches and use there distance footwork and timing to pick them apart insted of walking right in and get clinched. (jab would work well to keep the distance to)

 

[thirteen]

And theres a sport called kickboxing that has figured out how to modify boxing with kicks involved (without takedown defense obv) so why is traditional boxing is so important?

As someone who made the move to boxing after 2 years of kickboxing I have
to ask have you ever actually trained boxing?

 

[Corey Roberts]

how impressive did KJ noons look against dida?? Shows how a good boxing skill set can be used in MMA.

 

[CharmingCritic]

^^ Noons used a lot of head movement in that fight, at some points downright excessive it seemed, yet didn't get KO'd from a knee or kick like everyone says would happen. and it was against a guy whose Muay Thai is supposedly solid (although I dont really see it)

 

[Corey Roberts]

yeah he had no regard for knee's and was bobbing and weaving below dida's waist.

 

[Cannon_6]

I kinda feel like kicking in general is a bit overrated. Kicks end fights rarely compared to punches.

That's true in pure Muay Thai as well -- most knockouts come from punches. But that doesn't mean kicks are any less important.

Do you feel the same way about takedowns in MMA? They don't end fights.

 

[lukewall]

I kinda feel like kicking in general is a bit overrated. Kicks end fights rarely compared to punches.

I somewhat agree. Especially, when you see kickboxers having a tough time keeping it on the feet and they continue to throw kicks. Amazes me when fighters and corners don't figure that out.

 

[cobrahead1030]

i'm curious to hear opinions for anyone that's actually trained in boxing specifically for a while

i started out with boxing, and am planning on training other areas as well but keeping boxing as my base...i'm far from being an MMA fighter though, so i can't really speak as to how well it works

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

MMA striking should definatly be more boxing centric than MT oriented since it requires less modification. You still need to be familiar with the kicks, knees and elbows though which is why I think the Dutch have a great formula for striking that really lends itself to MMA very well.

 

[ShaolinShaman]

Yes I have trained both MT, kickb and boxing. If I had the choice to drop a class boxing would be first.

You guys arent understanding my big point though- Muay Thai is now a hybrid sport in itself, a very long time ago boxers cross influenced each other in thailand and Muay Thai took a lot from boxing- so what you see now in muay thai is pretty much the extent of boxing technique you should use with 8 limbs involved. If boxing evolved to be more like MT who knows it could be better, but it didnt.

 

[Vil7]

I kinda feel like kicking in general is a bit overrated. Kicks end fights rarely compared to punches.

I think kicks are underrated and under-utilized in mma, particularly leg kicks. It's probably because developing effective kicks and the necessary flexibility takes a lot of work.