BJJ and strokes

[Peteyandjia]

I suspect gi or nogi has little or nothing to do with it. I suspect if a master strangler applies a clean & technical submission, whether it's a nogi darce or a bow & arrow in the gi or anything in between, and applies the finish favoring careful precision with minimal strength, the opponent will be relatively unharmed.

And if a so-so strangler goes hard in the paint, wrenching the submission along the way somewhat sloppily & applying the finish more like an angry bull in a china shop, then it won't matter if it's the lapel of a jacket, or a bare forearm against the carotids: it could do damage, or at least is far more likely to. This is my strong suspicion.

 

[shunyata]

I suspect gi or nogi has little or nothing to do with it. I suspect if a master strangler applies a clean & technical submission, whether it's a nogi darce or a gi bow & arrow or anything in between, and applies the finish favoring careful precision with minimal strength, the opponent will be relatively unharmed.

And if a so-so strangler goes hard in the paint, wrenching the submission along the way somewhat sloppily & applying the finish more like an angry bull in a china shop, then it won't matter if it's the lapel of a jacket, or a bare forearm against the carotids: it could do damage, or at least is far more likely to. This is my strong suspicion.

Highly theoretical, but from what I know of physics and the vascular injuries I've gotten from striking and grappling...

Smashing and grinding across is much worse than simply smashing in with the same force and releasing.

Like if I take a headbutt to the eyebrow and it hits clean and retreats, versus if I take a headbutt that hits with the same force but sticks and slides across the bone... there's much more tearing, much more bleeding, more vascular damage.

Hanging out in a choke that's not there but also can't be readily escaped is one of those things I think we need respect and bail out early on.

As the aggressor on a non working guillotine, just sweep with it and let it go, don't get into a von flue war. As the defender, if you can't take the pressure off your neck maybe it's not the end of the world to tap and reset even if they don't have it clean.

 

[winterbike]

I suspect gi or nogi has little or nothing to do with it. I suspect if a master strangler applies a clean & technical submission, whether it's a nogi darce or a bow & arrow in the gi or anything in between, and applies the finish favoring careful precision with minimal strength, the opponent will be relatively unharmed.

And if a so-so strangler goes hard in the paint, wrenching the submission along the way somewhat sloppily & applying the finish more like an angry bull in a china shop, then it won't matter if it's the lapel of a jacket, or a bare forearm against the carotids: it could do damage, or at least is far more likely to. This is my strong suspicion.

I disagree. Certains subs like a Darce are all about grinding and smashing until you get the right position and the tap. When you're on the receiving end your neck and upper back get cranked non-stop, even when the guy is good and ''technical''.

With gi chokes you often don't feel a thing until the guy gets his grips, and then it's immediately over.

 

[TheMaster]

I disagree. Certains subs like a Darce are all about grinding and smashing until you get the right position and the tap. When you're on the receiving end your neck and upper back get cranked non-stop, even when the guy is good and ''technical''.

With gi chokes you often don't feel a thing until the guy gets his grips, and then it's immediately over.

You are right that nogi has more grind, and may lead to greater probability of damage from these types of strangles and cranks.
But I think the acute pressure from a lapel will often be more concentrated due to the smaller surface area than a forearm so will present its own dangers even if the tap is generally quicker.

 

[Peteyandjia]

Certains subs like a Darce are all about grinding and smashing until you get the right position and the tap.

Not true. In fact I cringe when I read this, ha. No offense to you, I just mean because I've seen it so many times. Don't get me wrong, the darce can absolutely be applied in this way like you are saying. There is plenty of leverage along the way, to really wrench on someone's neck if you want to. And plenty do. That's how Big John McCarthy's neck got fucked up for example, & not even in a fight, someone just demonstrating on him. He got so injured from that he couldn't roll for a long time.

But all of that is from someone going too hard, & it's all completely unnecessary. The darce, from setup to execution, can (& should) be a perfectly clean & pretty painless strangulation, when applied efficiently -- I would even say, correctly. As any crank in that position, should really be considered a failure by the wannabe strangler applying it, even if you get the tap.

I would say instead: Aim for a clean sleepytime strangle when applying a darce, wherein the opponent goes from thoroughly controlled, to slipping into unconsciousness, & is merely uncomfortable along the way, but not in pain.

 

[legkicktko]

Or you could just... you know... live your life and train. Outliers are not determinant of your outcome. I would rather achieve a black belt then sit in my room for the rest of my life because everything outside is dangerous.

Obviously that's an extreme dichotomy. I have a plethora of hobbies that are relatively dangerous, but all in context.

Obviously I think from my perspective, the data is not comprehensive which screws with my brain.

For everyone on here to read.... some extra data below from my gym

Anecdotally, I had briefly heard of this before and not payed a ton of attention to it because honestly you can get fucked up from doing anything, so I wasn't surprised to see some BJJ guys having problems with strokes and I figured they probably had pre-existing conditions. For example, I know a lot of divers, but I knew one guy personally who went on a dive for the first time and died due to a condition in his lungs he didn't know he had. Sucks, but it's not statistically significant and you can get killed doing anything, especially if you don't know you have a pre-existing condition.

That said, a few months ago, a guy at our gym who is a blue belt had a stroke a few hours after training. The worst part is it was a fundamentals class with no live-roll. These classes are frequented by new trainees but older, experienced guys supplement them as well as they become an attention-to- detail presentation and are excellent for drilling/active recovery. If your body is banged up, but you don't want to sit at home and rest, you do a fundamentals class. That's how they are presented. All instruction, all drilling, no live roll.

They had drilled some type of lapel choke, and he claims the guy who did it to him did it too aggressively more than once, but nothing that made him concerned. A few hours later, he has a stroke at home. He is going to be ok, and will likely train again, but it's a longish recovery (doc says 6 months to a year).

Note: My instructor competes at worlds and is well known in the jiu-jitsu community. He had not heard of this possibility before at least he says. He called the other gyms under our same banner to report what had happened and get advice, and they ALL had instances of this already. It has changed the atmosphere of the gym a bit in that I've noticed they are very careful about new people rolling (handpicking your partners for months, whereas before it was like anyone can roll with anyone). That said, that's not super comforting because this happened during drilling and it happened with a guy who has been training for years and is a strong individual with a thick ass neck so I hate that I can't make sense of it.

I wish we had more data on this...

 

[winterbike]

Not true. In fact I cringe when I read this, ha. No offense to you, I just mean because I've seen it so many times. Don't get me wrong, the darce can absolutely be applied in this way like you are saying. There is plenty of leverage along the way, to really wrench on someone's neck if you want to. And plenty do. That's how Big John McCarthy's neck got fucked up for example, & not even in a fight, someone just demonstrating on him. He got so injured from that he couldn't roll for a long time.

But all of that is from someone going too hard, & it's all completely unnecessary. The darce, from setup to execution, can (& should) be a perfectly clean & pretty painless strangulation, when applied efficiently -- I would even say, correctly. As any crank in that position, should really be considered a failure by the wannabe strangler applying it, even if you get the tap.

I would say instead: Aim for a clean sleepytime strangle when applying a darce, wherein the opponent goes from thoroughly controlled, to slipping into unconsciousness, & is merely uncomfortable along the way, but not in pain.

Cringe? Get off your high horse a bit. Everyone knows about ''clean'' arm triangle setups, but in practice it almost never happens. Show me someone with a clean and painless Darce and I'll show you someone who spent 10 years neck cranking their training partners until they got a great feeling for the sub.

 

[Peteyandjia]

Cringe? Get off your high horse a bit. Everyone knows about ''clean'' arm triangle setups, but in practice it almost never happens. Show me someone with a clean and painless Darce and I'll show you someone who spent 10 years neck cranking their training partners until they got a great feeling for the sub.

Show me someone who spent 10 years cranking necks on every darce, & I'll show you someone who never learned a proper darce.

And it's not my high horse, the high horse is perfect technique -- the ideal we are always climbing towards, striving for, & most often -- falling short of. You, me, & everyone else who steps onto the mat. But still, we strive...

My 'cringe' was not aimed at you personally, sorry if I gave that impression. My cringe was picturing all the necks that get jacked up in half-assed darces. Which I know is quite common. For the record, I'm just a fellow schmuck who Loves jiujitsu. I don't think I'm any better than you.

Spoiler

(...although, it sounds like my darce might be)

 

[winterbike]

Spoiler

(...although, it sounds like my darce might be)

For your sake I hope it is, I haven't attempted one since 2014 I think. Too much time spent in the gi o_o

 

[ChickenBrother]

Cringe? Get off your high horse a bit. Everyone knows about ''clean'' arm triangle setups, but in practice it almost never happens. Show me someone with a clean and painless Darce and I'll show you someone who spent 10 years neck cranking their training partners until they got a great feeling for the sub.

Show me someone who spent 10 years cranking necks on every darce, & I'll show you someone who never learned a proper darce.

And it's not my high horse, the high horse is perfect technique -- the ideal we are always climbing towards, striving for, & most often -- falling short of. You, me, & everyone else who steps onto the mat. But still, we strive...

My 'cringe' was not aimed at you personally, sorry if I gave that impression. My cringe was picturing all the necks that get jacked up in half-assed darces. Which I know is quite common. For the record, I'm just a fellow schmuck who Loves jiujitsu. I don't think I'm any better than you.

Spoiler

(...although, it sounds like my darce might be)

Honestly I think you guys are both right. It depends as much on the uke as it does on the tori applying the darce. Some guys like me are just stubborn and my Judo coach back in the 90's used to tell us to always tap to joint subs but never to chokes, because you never know when you're going to go out and you should fight it to the end.

There was a young purple belt fighter at our gym with very long arms who loved the darce. He'd hit it all the time and most guys would just tap right away. He wasn't even muscling it and was a very smooth grappler, but I would always resist and try not to tap. He got good enough at it that he sometimes cinched it up right away and I had to tap, but sometimes I was able to tuck my chin, turn my head just so and post on his hip so I could survive despite the discomfort. When I defended like that, he probably had a 50/50 chance of finishing (I went out at least once), but he was a good rolling partner and if I didn't tap within 10 seconds or so, he'd just let go and try something else.

My neck was definitely sore when he'd crank it though, and since he changed gyms my spine and carotid arteries are thankful.

 

[mattemate]

For your sake I hope it is, I haven't attempted one since 2014 I think. Too much time spent in the gi o_o

You can darce in the gi, it's just a bitch! I've been hitting N/S in the gi lately

 

[Grassshoppa]

Damn. Didn't realize you had had one. How's you recovery been? Left or right hemisphere? I used to be a SLP so I know the topic pretty well.

My story is on page 1 in the first post under the links. Right. Lost 30% of my brain.

 

[legkicktko]

Nick Brooks from Millhill had a stroke and passed away. Anyone know if it was from a choke? Link to go fund me:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-nic...&utm_medium=copy_link_all&utm_source=customer

 

[TheMaster]

Nick Brooks from Millhill had a stroke and passed away. Anyone know if it was from a choke? Link to go fund me:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-nic...&utm_medium=copy_link_all&utm_source=customer

A respcted BJJ instructor passing away relatively young from a stroke who was as far as we know fit and healthy, it's hard not to suspect that there was a roll to play from chokes.
Carotid artery dissection can occur without immediate effects and the damage can be cumulative without one knowing, which is part of the risk. I'm sure more info will come out but whether or not they can trace it to a specific incident , regardless we know there is a significant risk to applying theses holds in training and competition now.
I feel that we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift and different approach to training as knowledge and education on this increases.
Maybe there will be a turn around where strangles and chokes are treated like leg locks and neck cranks used to be, only practiced by higher grades and with quick tap rules.

 

[yetanother]

Show me someone who spent 10 years cranking necks on every darce, & I'll show you someone who never learned a proper darce.

And it's not my high horse, the high horse is perfect technique -- the ideal we are always climbing towards, striving for, & most often -- falling short of. You, me, & everyone else who steps onto the mat. But still, we strive...

My 'cringe' was not aimed at you personally, sorry if I gave that impression. My cringe was picturing all the necks that get jacked up in half-assed darces. Which I know is quite common. For the record, I'm just a fellow schmuck who Loves jiujitsu. I don't think I'm any better than you.

Spoiler

(...although, it sounds like my darce might be)

A lot of top level darcers like Drsydake or Ruotolos teach it as pure neck crank with thumb placement that makes it almost impposible to choke someone.

 

[legkicktko]

A respcted BJJ instructor passing away relatively young from a stroke who was as far as we know fit and healthy, it's hard not to suspect that there was a roll to play from chokes.
Carotid artery dissection can occur without immediate effects and the damage can be cumulative without one knowing, which is part of the risk. I'm sure more info will come out but whether or not they can trace it to a specific incident , regardless we know there is a significant risk to applying theses holds in training and competition now.
I feel that we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift and different approach to training as knowledge and education on this increases.
Maybe there will be a turn around where strangles and chokes are treated like leg locks and neck cranks used to be, only practiced by higher grades and with quick tap rules.

RIP to the man.

Objectively though, he did not look fit and healthy. I mean that as no disrespect. That said, I agree and still think it's highly likely it came from a choke although I haven't been able to find that reference anywhere, unlike with others.

 

[legkicktko]

A respcted BJJ instructor passing away relatively young from a stroke who was as far as we know fit and healthy, it's hard not to suspect that there was a roll to play from chokes.
Carotid artery dissection can occur without immediate effects and the damage can be cumulative without one knowing, which is part of the risk. I'm sure more info will come out but whether or not they can trace it to a specific incident , regardless we know there is a significant risk to applying theses holds in training and competition now.
I feel that we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift and different approach to training as knowledge and education on this increases.
Maybe there will be a turn around where strangles and chokes are treated like leg locks and neck cranks used to be, only practiced by higher grades and with quick tap rules.

Since awareness of this, I think about it while training. Our gym generally already hammers the point home of quick tapping. That doesn't mean everyone does, but you know, you can lead a horse to water...

That said, the irony of these chokes is my neck definitely takes more of a beating drilling than rolling. If you and me and drilling guillotines, you and I both have to work on details to make sure it's being applied correctly. I can't just tap as soon as you get my neck in a drill because I won't you to apply it correctly and maybe you're pulling my neck up and not applying it correctly, so I have to sort of steer the situation so you can choke me more effectively and vice versa. That means we will likely be choking each other repeatedly for several minutes.

That rarely happens in rolling. There are one or two people who go balls to the wall, and people know who they are, but even the most competitive guys in our gym who compete at worlds are very chill on the rolling and aren't going to choke you 11 times in a 7 minute round. It happens much more with drilling and fundamental classes imo.

 

[Grassshoppa]

 

[TheMaster]

Rogans face when he learns for the first time that strokes can happen from strangles, chokes and neck cranks.

RIP to the man.

Objectively though, he did not look fit and healthy. I mean that as no disrespect. That said, I agree and still think it's highly likely it came from a choke although I haven't been able to find that reference anywhere, unlike with others.

Honesty I find it a bit disingenous that they don't seem to be open about the fact that it was clearly likely to have been caused by a choke.
The have a respectful obituary page to him here
https://millhillbjj.com/trainer/nicholas-brooks/

Talk about his various grappling achievements etc, but the fact that he probably died from BJJ is kind of important for prospective and current students to know. I don't see any stroke awarenesses page on their site either.

 

[legkicktko]

Rogans face when he learns for the first time that strokes can happen from strangles, chokes and neck cranks.



Honesty I find it a bit disingenous that they don't seem to be open about the fact that it was clearly likely to have been caused by a choke.
The have a respectful obituary page to him here
https://millhillbjj.com/trainer/nicholas-brooks/

Talk about his various grappling achievements etc, but the fact that he probably died from BJJ is kind of important for prospective and current students to know. I don't see any stroke awarenesses page on their site either.

Hey man, for what it’s worth, I read after the fact from his wife I think? That he had multiple strokes due to bad COVID. I’m not a doctor but I read that his was a combo of COVID and plaque buildup, not physical damage to his arteries.