Are we going to see danaher's back attack system in Mma?

[BJJ_Rage]

It's we all know, getting the rnc when the guy is just content with hand fighting and not trying to escape it's really really hard, I think implementing a trapping hands system will be ideal. Now trapping the arm is nothing new, bj penn was doing it long ago, but it required the use of hooks, instead of the body triangle, and that means less control and high risk of lossing the position...Danaher's back attacks seems to have blended the use the body triangle with a hand trapping system... I think demian, despite having a nasty rnc, could benefit a lot from it.. I personally don't see Mma gloves getting it the way of it, it will make getting the forearm under the chin harder though but at least won't be having to fight 2 arms...

 

[Uchi Mata]

The MMA gloves do get in the way, quite a bit actually (was working on it literally this morning with gloves on), but I think the system is still largely viable. Incidentally what's hard is not getting the hand under the chin, what's hard is feeding the arm to the trapping leg and then getting your hand free to choke. To keep the arm trapped you have to really pinch with your legs, and when you do that the gloves make it pretty tough to slip your hand out (since you trap your own hand when you trap his arm).

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The MMA gloves do get in the way, quite a bit actually (was working on it literally this morning with gloves on), but I think the system is still largely viable. Incidentally what's hard is not getting the hand under the chin, what's hard is feeding the arm to the trapping leg and then getting your hand free to choke. To keep the arm trapped you have to really pinch with your legs, and when you do that the gloves make it pretty tough to slip your hand out (since you trap your own hand when you trap his arm).

Can't you just go one arm choke?

 

[Bubblun]

Most mma fighters are so athletic that they could turn and you could end up in closed guard and lose the fight, very risky.

By the way, Demian Maia is consistently developing new tricks to get the choke from the back, he said that when he retires he would like to be a coach and he knows how to make the choke easier in a mma setting with gloves.

"During this camp I discovered a new transition to the back control," Maia told AG. Fight for FloCombat. "Besides the transition I made against Condit, I learned a new one that allows my submission to be more efficient. A student and friend gave me a tip, I made some adjustments of my own and mixed it with something Rilion [Gracie] once told me. I'm constantly learning.

"It changes a lot. Especially the back control. What I was doing a year ago is totally different form what I do now. It looks the same, but the details regarding the position of your body, arm control, angle and pressure are constantly being evolved. The difference between my submissions against Brown and Condit are clear. I put a lot of work there. After I fought Brown, I started to study the reason I had lost positions. I always do this kind of stuff and I was much more efficient against Condit."

http://www.flocombat.com/article/55...t-ufc-211-unfazed-by-title-chaos#.WR37r3tZxjQ

 

[Uchi Mata]

If someone turns into you after you've trapped the arm, they're basically triangling themselves. The main thing a smart grappler will try to do is get his back to the mat, but that's pretty tough and there are solid attacks off that.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Most mma fighters are so athletic that they could turn and you could end up in closed guard and lose the fight, very risky.

By the way, Demian Maia is consistently developing new tricks to get the choke from the back, he said that when he retires he would like to be a coach and he knows how to make the choke easier in a mma setting with gloves.

"During this camp I discovered a new transition to the back control," Maia told AG. Fight for FloCombat. "Besides the transition I made against Condit, I learned a new one that allows my submission to be more efficient. A student and friend gave me a tip, I made some adjustments of my own and mixed it with something Rilion [Gracie] once told me. I'm constantly learning.

"It changes a lot. Especially the back control. What I was doing a year ago is totally different form what I do now. It looks the same, but the details regarding the position of your body, arm control, angle and pressure are constantly being evolved. The difference between my submissions against Brown and Condit are clear. I put a lot of work there. After I fought Brown, I started to study the reason I had lost positions. I always do this kind of stuff and I was much more efficient against Condit."

http://www.flocombat.com/article/55...t-ufc-211-unfazed-by-title-chaos#.WR37r3tZxjQ

You mean before trapping the arm? You are using a body lock all the time till the arm is trapped, I don't think it's possible to turn in when the arm is trap.

 

[Bubblun]

I don't even know how the Danaher guys to it, but trapping the arm could be risky, i have seen so many times fighters with great bridges like wrestlers exploding and turning in even against word class guys.

I also seen guys on purpose "swimming" both arm under the opponent hooks, giving the two arm trapped, but only to bridge and escape from under.

 

[Rico]

Found this for those unaware

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I don't even know how the Danaher guys to it, but trapping the arm could be risky, i have seen so many times fighters with great bridges like wrestlers exploding and turning in even against word class guys.

I also seen guys on purpose "swimming" both arm under the opponent hooks, giving the two arm trapped, but only to bridge and escape from under.

well, then you are assuming to trap the arm you need to use hooks, and I agree, hooks in moder day mma are not something I would do, at least if my legs are long enough to lock up a body triangle. Kron lost the back 2 times the last fight he had. Danaher advocates the body triangle, same as lets say maia would do it, but the goal is to trap the top arm, if that arm is trap, then theres literally no way to turn in. Swiming both arms under the hooks its a good escape, but in this case, one arm is being trapped with the leg and the other arm is being control with the othr arm...

here, it looks something like this.

 

[jack36767]

I'll be totally honest I have a "decent" RNC success rate but it always comes from trapping the arm. But I'm too stumpy for body triangles I keep them escaping by attacking the back similar to a the truck but I'm attacking the back with one hook but the other leg making a figure 4 high on their thigh. It's really easy to keep control and be able to bring the leg up to trap the arm

 

[Zefram Cochrane]

I'll be totally honest I have a "decent" RNC success rate but it always comes from trapping the arm. But I'm too stumpy for body triangles I keep them escaping by attacking the back similar to a the truck but I'm attacking the back with one hook but the other leg making a figure 4 high on their thigh. It's really easy to keep control and be able to bring the leg up to trap the arm

Do you mean something like this?
(Timestamped)

 

[selfcritical]

If i'm not mistaken we've already seen a pretty similar sequence from Penn

 

[EndlessCritic]

Evan Dunham is imo playing the most advanced back control game. He is extremely good at trapping an arm with the legs.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'll be totally honest I have a "decent" RNC success rate but it always comes from trapping the arm. But I'm too stumpy for body triangles I keep them escaping by attacking the back similar to a the truck but I'm attacking the back with one hook but the other leg making a figure 4 high on their thigh. It's really easy to keep control and be able to bring the leg up to trap the arm

I used to do the same, started using both hooks as some people were giving me problems going to turtle, if they manage to bring you sitbelt down, using a 2 on 1 defense they can turn to turtle. If you have a high secure sit belt, its great.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If i'm not mistaken we've already seen a pretty similar sequence from Penn

yes, but the trapping system is different.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Evan Dunham is imo playing the most advanced back control game. He is extremely good at trapping an arm with the legs.

hmmm, never seen him do it, probably because is a fighter I dont follow much, care to tell me which fight should I look up from him?

 

[rmongler]

I think the best way to get the RNC while maintaining the body triangle is the back bow finish.

Its been used several times by guys in EBI, like Kyle Boehm in ebi 9, and also notably by Chad Mendes in SUG 3.

Turn the guy onto his side, punch your top arm in around his neck or face, then put your hips into it and pop his head off.

The position lets you put more of your body behind your arm making it alot harder to defend; whereas from classic back control you're more or less relying on your arms alone to fight off his hands.

Can also be done from the leg ride.

 

[Bubblun]

Found this for those unaware

well, then you are assuming to trap the arm you need to use hooks, and I agree, hooks in moder day mma are not something I would do, at least if my legs are long enough to lock up a body triangle. Kron lost the back 2 times the last fight he had. Danaher advocates the body triangle, same as lets say maia would do it, but the goal is to trap the top arm, if that arm is trap, then theres literally no way to turn in. Swiming both arms under the hooks its a good escape, but in this case, one arm is being trapped with the leg and the other arm is being control with the othr arm...

here, it looks something like this.

Watched that video, great stuff but the idea doesn't seem anything new compared to what Marcelo Garcia did for years, Marcelo did not use the body triangle but he has short legs, i remember a video of Marcelo saying that if you have long legs you should definitely use a body triangle if the opponent is standing and if he had long legs he would do it.

There are moves that for some reason we see all the time in pure grappling or in the gym, but never in high level mma, probably because jiu jitsu is more methodical, you pass, mount, take the back and choke, meanwhile MMA is more chaotic.
There is a saying in bjj that if you mount the guy you are better than him, because you had to beat all his defenses to reach that position, i guess that if you have the opponent's back and you have him already all knotted up you have already beaten him, but in mma if you manage to jump on his back early in the fight and the guy has a lot of energy it is just better holding position and not risk.
If you have the chance, watch the Michinori Tanaka vs Kyung Ho Kang fight, Kang had his back like 10 times, even with the body triangle, and Tanaka escaped every single time, some guys have a crazy bridge.

I guess if someone is THAT good he could make anything work, but the trend in high level mma these days is advanced basics and fighting safe, don't give anything to your opponent and don't be scared to win a "boring" decision.
If you notice, Demian Maia always goes for the armbar from the back when the round is ending, so he doesn't risk losing the round, should be a quite high percentage move and the transition has decent amount of control, but he always lose position.

 

[Bjoern]

I don´t know about the Danaher system but Javier Vasquez has a whole DVD about the Rear Naked Choke and he has tons of arm control and trapping stuff on it.

 

[yetanother]

but the trend in high level mma these days is advanced basics and fighting safe

Most top level mma guys aren't bjj specialists.