International [Arab-Israeli Conflict, v4] Israel Sets Goal of Doubling the Jewish Population on the Golan Heights

[Rational Poster]

1) At what period of time does historical claims to land expire? Clearly jews had it before palestinians (who are really sunni arab muslims) surrounded by other sunni arab muslims 350 million of their brothers outside the country who never created a state for their displaced arabs.

2) What do you think about @Voodoo_Child906 post about the real claim is tthat they want arab sunni muslim control over the land?

3) Okay making a jewish state from Germany land makes sense, put it next to the ocean in the north so it has a natural border protect it and have it be decent size of land and be supported by British, French, USA.

But that still leaves Israel existing in palestine via the British from balfour document and the other #1 to 4.. Then you get 2 jewish states which is fine. But keep in mind the jewish state that was said by british was to be shared by the jews and muslims. Why could muslims not live peacefully if they are religion of peace with other people? This is also before holocaust. And then how come after might makes right the religion of peace again strikes by being upset with the partition plan they wage genocidal war with their fellow sunni arabs against the jews and lose? My question is why do you ignore this or keep forgiving the obvious arab sunni intolerance and hypocrisy?

1) The Jews haven't had a state in the region since before Christ. How the modern Palestinians came to be there doesn't matter since they were the ones actually living there and have lived there for the most recent centuries. The Jews lost it to the Romans who lost it to the Ottomans who lost it to the Brits.

2) Both sides have extremists, that's a major part of the problem. I'm not concerned about extremists so much as I am the average Joe Palestinian forcefully removed from their actual ancestral homes to make room for a Jewish state that hadn't existed for 2000 years.

3) The Brits failed to enforce their mandate and the Jewish settlers ignored it. That's not right.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Sure they would. They'd create an excuse and do it. They kill every single last non-jew if they wanted to, and nobody would care.

Ok I'll bite, when has the state of Israel done that in the past?

 

[Seaside]

1) The Jews haven't had a state in the region since before Christ. How the modern Palestinians came to be there doesn't matter since they were the ones actually living there and have lived there for the most recent centuries. The Jews lost it to the Romans who lost it to the Ottomans who lost it to the Brits.

2) Both sides have extremists, that's a major part of the problem. I'm not concerned about extremists so much as I am the average Joe Palestinian forcefully removed from their actual ancestral homes to make room for a Jewish state that hadn't existed for 2000 years.

3) The Brits failed to enforce their mandate and the Jewish settlers ignored it. That's not right.

you should not use the word ancestral then since you only care to go back maybe 100 hundred or so years. Do you not feel sympathy for the jews given that the christians who took it after Rome and then the Muslims were both intolerant populations?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

if not because you think all people equal, race etc not exist matter and that religions are all dumb okay then your point make more sense.

But what you say now because Israel not going anywhere so how you address the hypocrisy of the surrounding countries and the sunni arab palestinians? also should Israel give up land it won in wars that they were attacked in? Was it okay for Israel to give up sinai.

and when they were attacked in 1972 for example and almost beaten. Would it have been moral for Israel to have just expelled all muslim sunni arabs from the west bank and Israel as an act of war or not? How do you think this should be hanlded.

 

[Rational Poster]

you should not use the word ancestral then since you only care to go back maybe 100 hundred or so years. Do you not feel sympathy for the jews given that the christians who took it after Rome and then the Muslims were both intolerant populations?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

if not because you think all people equal, race etc not exist matter and that religions are all dumb okay then your point make more sense.

But what you say now because Israel not going anywhere so how you address the hypocrisy of the surrounding countries and the sunni arab palestinians? also should Israel give up land it won in wars that they were attacked in? Was it okay for Israel to give up sinai.

and when they were attacked in 1972 for example and almost beaten. Would it have been moral for Israel to have just expelled all muslim sunni arabs from the west bank and Israel as an act of war or not? How do you think this should be hanlded.

It won't be handled.

This is the current state and it's not going to change.

To me ancestral claims of the past 100 years of living breathing people outweigh the ancestral claims that are two millennia old, however.

 

[abiG]

- The #1 way is simply force. Might makes right. If you can take it and hold it, it is yours.

- The second is UN (LoN) sanctioned title to land be given to you

- The third is the people have the strongest historical (or indigenous) claim

You are still confused from post #884. I showed how flawed his three points were previously.

I can show you as well if you wish to be intellectually honest, OK?

Answer to these three simple points in response to his (and now yours lol) initial three points:

1) Since you want to use the bible/torah as an historical reference here, tell us who built the walls that came down when Jericho blew his horn.

2) If anything good came from WWII, one might say something about the Nuremberg principles, yes? Look them up and check back, but only after reading the multiple UN resolutions regarding stealing land in war. Go read international law regarding the settlements which are "flagrant violations of international law," according to the UN and the outposts which are illegal even under Israeli law that the apartheid shitheads rarely enforce.

3) Even if you think that anyone has the power to give one peoples' land to a third party, go take a really good look at that map (that you mentioned in post 884) and tell us all where Jerusalem is. If you tell us that Jerusalem was ever even part of Israel, you'd be lying.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

2) Both sides have extremists, that's a major part of the problem. I'm not concerned about extremists so much as I am the average Joe Palestinian forcefully removed from their actual ancestral homes to make room for a Jewish state that hadn't existed for 2000 years.

Those weren't the extremists in 1964, most of the people living in "Palestine" at the time didn't care about an independent state as they didn't really have a real national identity as of yet. Some wanted to live under the Pan-Arab Republic of Nasser, Some were fine with Jordanian citizenship and some wanted to be a part of a greater Syria. Some certainly wanted a Palestinian land but most did not care as long as Sunni Muslims dominated the holy land.

 

[Rational Poster]

Those weren't the extremists in 1964, most of the people living in "Palestine" at the time didn't care about an independent state as they didn't really have a real national identity as of yet. Some wanted to live under the Pan-Arab Republic of Nasser, Some were fine with Jordanian citizenship and some wanted to be a part of a greater Syria. Some certainly wanted a Palestinian land but most did not care as long as Sunni Muslims dominated the holy land.

I'd argue that being unwilling to share the Holy Land is an extreme position.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

I'd argue that being unwilling to share the Holy Land is an extreme position.

I agree, they would definitely allow other faiths to live there as long as the Sunnis had control.

 

[Rational Poster]

I agree, they would definitely allow other faiths to live there as long as the Sunnis had control.

IMO, if you want to be really real, the Israeli state was a joint US/Soviet Cold War game that got way out of control and is now its own thing.

Initially the Soviets thought they would destabilize the region and promote a socialist state in the region, but when that failed they were content with just destabilizing the region.

To the Americans it was seen as a democratic wedge in the area to counter the huge Soviet influence over the Arab States and also a force to counter against Nasserism. It is basically an American military colony at this point under the guise of Jewish reparation and religious mumbo jumbo.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

IMO, if you want to be really real, the Israeli state was a joint US/Soviet Cold War game that got way out of control and is now its own thing.

Initially the Soviets thought they would destabilize the region and promote a socialist state in the region, but when that failed they were content with just destabilizing the region.

To the Americans it was seen as a democratic wedge in the area to counter the huge Soviet influence over the Arab States and also a force to counter against Nasserism. It is basically an American military colony at this point under the guise of Jewish reparation and religious mumbo jumbo.

Zionism and the Israeli state are many things to many people and I definitely agree that they have been a pawn in a larger geopolitical struggle between Superpowers. Likewise the people of Palestine were formed (at least in part) by their own brethren as an En Passant counter to the Israelis. That's how did you put it... really real.

 

[jeffk]

Damn. I thought we were going to resolve this conflict in this thread and bring peace to the region.

Maybe next week?

Talking about a Jewish state being carved out in Germany? What is the point of that or other what ifs?

Israel exists and Israeli jews are not going to give up on their national project.

There is a large percentage of Israelis who are willing to give up land for peace. and still support the two state solution. There are a lot of centrist Jewish Americans who are in groups like Americans for peace now or j street that are critical of right wing Israeli policy. There are more left wing more fringe groups like social justice in palistine or jewish voice for peace too. I think those groups actually do not help but that is my own opinion.

If you think it was unjust that Israel as created, okay. Fine. Where do you from there?

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Damn. I thought we were going to resolve this conflict in this thread and bring peace to the region.

Maybe next week?

Talking about a Jewish state being carved out in Germany? What is the point of that or other what ifs?

Israel exists and Israeli jews are not going to give up on their national project.

There is a large percentage of Israelis who are willing to give up land for peace. and still support the two state solution. There are a lot of centrist Jewish Americans who are in groups like Americans for peace now or j street that are critical of right wing Israeli policy. There are more left wing more fringe groups like social justice in palistine or jewish voice for peace too. I think those groups actually do not help but that is my own opinion.

If you think it was unjust that Israel as created, okay. Fine. Where do you from there?

Three choices that I see:

1) Accept the offer, build your state with continued diplomatic efforts for more land.

2) Reject the offer and stay within the status quo. Israel will continue to settle the west bank until your squeezed in just Ramallah.

3) Reject the offer and start the third intifada and hope to bring in a wider conflict and with the Superpowers. Armageddon basically.

 

[Islam Imamate]

A Woman Dedicated to Saving Lives Loses Hers in Gaza Violence

Razan al-Najjar, 20, was trying to help an injured protester near the border fence when she was fatally shot by Israeli soldiers, witnesses say. Last month, she spoke to The Times about the challenges she faced as a female medical volunteer.

What a fuck up on the part of the Israelis. Another article I read on her death suggests that when she was shot she was trying to rescue protestors who are choking from tear gas so its very possible they didn't shoot her intentionally despite the fact that she was wearing her paramedic uniform. But that doesn't make it too much better, dumping a bunch of tear gas on protesters and then blindly firing into them doesn't strike me as ethical.

 

[Seaside]

You are still confused from post #884. I showed how flawed his three points were previously.

I can show you as well if you wish to be intellectually honest, OK?

Answer to these three simple points in response to his (and now yours lol) initial three points:

1) Since you want to use the bible/torah as an historical reference here, tell us who built the walls that came down when Jericho blew his horn.

2) If anything good came from WWII, one might say something about the Nuremberg principles, yes? Look them up and check back, but only after reading the multiple UN resolutions regarding stealing land in war. Go read international law regarding the settlements which are "flagrant violations of international law," according to the UN and the outposts which are illegal even under Israeli law that the apartheid shitheads rarely enforce.

3) Even if you think that anyone has the power to give one peoples' land to a third party, go take a really good look at that map (that you mentioned in post 884) and tell us all where Jerusalem is. If you tell us that Jerusalem was ever even part of Israel, you'd be lying.

your a troll. Jerusalem belongs to jews they have greatest claim to it. Muslims made up their claims and islam is most evil and warped supremacist religion on earth.

A Woman Dedicated to Saving Lives Loses Hers in Gaza Violence




What a fuck up on the part of the Israelis. Another article I read on her death suggests that when she was shot she was trying to rescue protestors who are choking from tear gas so its very possible they didn't shoot her intentionally despite the fact that she was wearing her paramedic uniform. But that doesn't make it too much better, dumping a bunch of tear gas on protesters and then blindly firing into them doesn't strike me as ethical.

sure that muslims never do that to muslim women!! lol at acting like the issue is random killing by Israel againsts ínnocent´´ muslims. I seen the videos people setting shit on fire and teh same types that want sharia law. Breaking through fence screaming allah akbar and kill jews, kite bombs, throwing grenades.

Their holy books, and the polls do not lie those populations and radicalized by their own religion.

 

[abiG]

your a troll. Jerusalem belongs to jews they have greatest claim to it. Muslims made up their claims and islam is most evil and warped supremacist religion on earth.

Look, you latched on to post 884 and have been running with it regardless of the fact that it has been shown to be simply untrue. You even mentioned the same map from the LoN. Go look at it for crying out loud. Again, Jerusalem was never even part of Israel... your hatred for the Muslim world not withstanding.

 

[Seaside]

Look, you latched on to post 884 and have been running with it regardless of the fact that it has been shown to be simply untrue. You even mentioned the same map from the LoN. Go look at it for crying out loud. Again, Jerusalem was never even part of Israel... your hatred for the Muslim world not withstanding.

any innocent death is sad. But they admit (hamas) that most these there agents and those are terrorists. If the roles were flipped it so easy to say.

i have no idea what you are rambling about now everyone know you troll even @Phr3121 who was one few people who like your posts. Jersualem has been claimed by jews forever and history proves that. Nobody deny israel has right to exist or how it came about is very legal and legit from 4 best ways countries come about.

Issue is if two state solution should exist or where.

 

[abiG]

any innocent death is sad. But they admit (hamas) that most these there agents and those are terrorists. If the roles were flipped it so easy to say.

i have no idea what you are rambling about now everyone know you troll even @Phr3121 who was one few people who like your posts. Jersualem has been claimed by jews forever and history proves that. Nobody deny israel has right to exist or how it came about is very legal and legit from 4 best ways countries come about.

Issue is if two state solution should exist or where.

You are missing the simple and obvious point.

You even mentioned the same map from the LoN. Go look at it for crying out loud. Again, Jerusalem was never even part of Israel... your hatred for the Muslim world not withstanding.

 

[Seaside]

You are missing the simple and obvious point.

You even mentioned the same map from the LoN. Go look at it for crying out loud. Again, Jerusalem was never even part of Israel... your hatred for the Muslim world not withstanding.

You hate ´zionism´´ so lol at saying i hate islam which is a way worse evil ideology. my main issue is with the sunni denominations and islamic expansionism and supremacy which is what palestinians and egyptians and all nearby arab populations in that region support even according to pew research polls.

 

[Seaside]

You are missing the simple and obvious point.

You even mentioned the same map from the LoN. Go look at it for crying out loud. Again, Jerusalem was never even part of Israel... your hatred for the Muslim world not withstanding.

again i have no idea what you are talking about. lol. you are wrong jews in their holy book claim jerusalem and had lived there forever and before islam came to be. Not to mention the city was suppose be shared but muslim arabs disagreed to that and launched several wars to try kill jews. So now i dont blame jews for not wanting to share the jerusalem and let it be under muslim rule.

 

[abiG]

You hate ´zionism´´ so lol at saying i hate islam which is a way worse evil ideology. my main issue is with the sunni denominations and islamic expansionism and supremacy which is what palestinians and egyptians and all nearby arab populations in that region support even according to pew research polls.

Blah, blah, blah... have you looked at the map you have latched onto yet?

Has Jerusalem ever been recognized by the international community as part of Israel?