Anyone training BJJ without sparring?

[2008]

I train with a guy in his late 60s whom I've never seen spar. I don't really have a problem with it, but he keeps getting promoted. Assuming he keeps training, I don't know how our instructor could eventually give him a brown or black belt when he doesn't spar.

Those situations are tough to call. I'm not a black belt or a coach, but imagine your instructor is holding him to different standards. Is he a lifelong martial artists from another art but training BJJ late in life, if that is the case, him ranking up shouldn't really be a problem assuming he probably has some legit fighting skills. I can see someone like this getting a pass.

If he has no martial arts background what so ever, but keeps getting ranked up, your coach is probably comparing him to other 60+ years old. He is definitely not being compared to a 25 years-old purple/brown belt. That being said, there are people who get as far as brown belts who aren't really good, regardless of age. I heard from my coach that there are coaches out there who give high ranking belts to people who don't have the skill level to back it up, BUT are told never to compete or visit other gyms. Essentially they are give pity belts.

Me personally, If I was a coach or a gym owner, the highest rank I would give someone who wasn't very good, regardless of how long they have been training and paying me is a 4 stripe blue belt!

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

I try to pick my sparring (rolling partners) better - i.e. the other older guys or the higher belts tend to roll much more carefully than white, blue and some purple belts.

 

[Relentless chase]

i.e. doing just the technique/drilling part of the class and skipping the rolling part?

Is this even possible where you train?

I think this would be a great option for people who have had too many injuries and want to avoid the high risks associated with sparring (and competing). Injuries are rampant in BJJ and everyone eventually gets one of those horrific injuries.

P.S. and no, I'm not talking about Machado's flow jitsu for rich celebrities, but regular clubs and regular people.

Live Rolling is the best part of BJJ class, yea given, I love to learn and drill the technique taught, but rolling is so fun if you're doing it right and have the right training partners. that's how you get better, how are you ever gonna get good at any art if you're not putting yourself out there against better people?

Would a chef get better at cooking without actually cooking first?

Would a school teacher get better at teaching if they just go to college, get their degree, but don't teach?

You need to be rolling man, you're your own person, you make the decisions, not me, but in order to move up in the ranks of BJJ, you're gonna have to roll, that's how you get better.

Edit: just went back and read and it seems as if you weren't talking about yourself, but rather just in general. still, I would highly recommend to anyone that wants to get better at BJJ, you need to roll, if you're injured, that's one thing, but if not, you need to roll. period.

 

[loyalyolayal]

I'd probably do it to one up Danaher. Then create the Loyal Lock Squad.

 

[kjg1672]

Those situations are tough to call. I'm not a black belt or a coach, but imagine your instructor is holding him to different standards. Is he a lifelong martial artists from another art but training BJJ late in life, if that is the case, him ranking up shouldn't really be a problem assuming he probably has some legit fighting skills. I can see someone like this getting a pass.

If he has no martial arts background what so ever, but keeps getting ranked up, your coach is probably comparing him to other 60+ years old. He is definitely not being compared to a 25 years-old purple/brown belt. That being said, there are people who get as far as brown belts who aren't really good, regardless of age. I heard from my coach that there are coaches out there who give high ranking belts to people who don't have the skill level to back it up, BUT are told never to compete or visit other gyms. Essentially they are give pity belts.

Me personally, If I was a coach or a gym owner, the highest rank I would give someone who wasn't very good, regardless of how long they have been training and paying me is a 4 stripe blue belt!

He trained in TKD as a younger man, and it sounds like for a pretty long time. He's pretty beat up and sometimes has trouble getting through the warm-ups. I'm 46 and have been training for 10 years, and there are probably guys at my gym who think I suck for someone who's been training for 10 years, so I feel for the guy. But if I had trouble physically getting through a class and couldn't roll, I would probably find something else to do.

 

[Foppa21]

The drilling part is pretty much my club's weakness, we do 3-4 techniques every class with like 2 min each to try them, most of the time they are new or with a big enough new detail that you need a couple of reps to figure it out. I always drill with 2 or 3 guys that are at my level and that I know are serious so I don't waste my time but I still only get a couple of good reps.

After that we roll 5 to 8 rounds

Me and some other guys always do about 30 minutes of drilling when we go to the open mats, I don't think we have reached the intensity and simulation level that Galvao talks about but we're getting there I think

Ironically, Prof Galvao is very much roll, roll, roll

 

[Foppa21]

So everyone knows you at your gym as the guy who leaves before rolling? I'd be ashamed go back!

I don't think anyone cares tbh.

I've been there long enough. Through the years I've bounced between leaving before rolling, stayed after class to roll/drill some more, left class early, stayed after class to teach, left class on the dot, stayed to do S&C and everything in between.

It's called life. My life doesn't always revolve around BJJ though it has at times (as blasphemous as some might find it). I'm also at the point where I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone.

 

[1PBCE1]

I don't think anyone cares tbh.

I've been there long enough. Through the years I've bounced between leaving before rolling, stayed after class to roll/drill some more, left class early, stayed after class to teach, left class on the dot, stayed to do S&C and everything in between.

It's called life. My life doesn't always revolve around BJJ though it has at times (as blasphemous as some might find it). I'm also at the point where I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone.

What belt are you? I kind of got the impression you were a white belt for some reason, but it sounds like you're a higher belt?

That does change my opinion slightly.

 

[Foppa21]

What belt are you? I kind of got the impression you were a white belt for some reason, but it sounds like you're a higher belt?

That does change my opinion slightly.

Purple. The colour of the material that keeps my gi tidy shouldn't have any relevance to your opinion. Or at least minimal but that's just my view.

My view is that it's more a bearing of where in life a person is. If I had a teammate/student that was in the same boat as me and said they only had 45mins to an hr a session and had to leave on the dot, I would never say "Don't come to training, it's not worth it". Every moment spent on the mat is a opportunity to learn and you can only do what you can. Rather have them there than not. You just have to accept that those that can and do spend more time on the mats are going to progress faster.

As fun as rolling is, I've always found that with the time I have, the most effective use of my time towards improvement is medium to intense drilling followed by a couple of rounds of light, transitional rolling. Have to emphasise that the rolling is light and transitional because it allows me to try to try to use the technique I've just been drilling and to implement it with timing of a moving training partner. Issue with balls to the wall rolling is most people (myself included at times) will return back to type and what's safe (our bank of long time techniques) so we never try what we learn.

I used to play team sports it would drive me up the wall when we would drill a play for 50 minutes and the first play of a 10 min scrimmage, the team would just go back to doing the same rag tag stuff we always did. It's a complete waste of the last 50 minutes if you never try what you've learned immediately. When rolling with students, wherever possible, I put myself into the position for them to use the technique they just learned. I'll sit there and wait.

 

[Respeezy]

If i can drill i can roll.

 

[KnightTemplar]

If you NEVER spar for your entire bjj journey, you should just quit and do aikido.

This. I don't knock anyone's choices regarding what martial art they practice. If you want to practice a TMA with little or no contact, that is your decision. But BJJ is a full contact combat sport. If you're healthy and not rolling, then you might as well not do BJJ at all.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Purple. The colour of the material that keeps my gi tidy shouldn't have any relevance to your opinion. Or at least minimal but that's just my view.

My view is that it's more a bearing of where in life a person is. If I had a teammate/student that was in the same boat as me and said they only had 45mins to an hr a session and had to leave on the dot, I would never say "Don't come to training, it's not worth it". Every moment spent on the mat is a opportunity to learn and you can only do what you can. Rather have them there than not. You just have to accept that those that can and do spend more time on the mats are going to progress faster.

As fun as rolling is, I've always found that with the time I have, the most effective use of my time towards improvement is medium to intense drilling followed by a couple of rounds of light, transitional rolling. Have to emphasise that the rolling is light and transitional because it allows me to try to try to use the technique I've just been drilling and to implement it with timing of a moving training partner. Issue with balls to the wall rolling is most people (myself included at times) will return back to type and what's safe (our bank of long time techniques) so we never try what we learn.

I used to play team sports it would drive me up the wall when we would drill a play for 50 minutes and the first play of a 10 min scrimmage, the team would just go back to doing the same rag tag stuff we always did. It's a complete waste of the last 50 minutes if you never try what you've learned immediately. When rolling with students, wherever possible, I put myself into the position for them to use the technique they just learned. I'll sit there and wait.

This is a very good point, and I've heard the same from Thai Boxing instructors. It's good to go all out and try to nail each other sometimes, but the bulk of your sparring should be light to medium contact. For one thing, it cuts down on injuries. But the other reason is, as stated above, that under heavy pressure we instinctively revert to a small number of techniques we know will work.

 

[2008]

Purple. The colour of the material that keeps my gi tidy shouldn't have any relevance to your opinion. Or at least minimal but that's just my view.

My view is that it's more a bearing of where in life a person is. If I had a teammate/student that was in the same boat as me and said they only had 45mins to an hr a session and had to leave on the dot, I would never say "Don't come to training, it's not worth it". Every moment spent on the mat is a opportunity to learn and you can only do what you can. Rather have them there than not. You just have to accept that those that can and do spend more time on the mats are going to progress faster.

As fun as rolling is, I've always found that with the time I have, the most effective use of my time towards improvement is medium to intense drilling followed by a couple of rounds of light, transitional rolling. Have to emphasise that the rolling is light and transitional because it allows me to try to try to use the technique I've just been drilling and to implement it with timing of a moving training partner. Issue with balls to the wall rolling is most people (myself included at times) will return back to type and what's safe (our bank of long time techniques) so we never try what we learn.

I used to play team sports it would drive me up the wall when we would drill a play for 50 minutes and the first play of a 10 min scrimmage, the team would just go back to doing the same rag tag stuff we always did. It's a complete waste of the last 50 minutes if you never try what you've learned immediately. When rolling with students, wherever possible, I put myself into the position for them to use the technique they just learned. I'll sit there and wait.

Since your an upper belt(purple and higher) you basically get a pass for not rolling after class most of the time. It's assumed you paid your dues, have the skills, etc.

But I think it's different for white and blue belts. You basically should roll after drilling if time or injury is not an issue. Like someone said, you don't want to be that newish or lower level guy who doesn't roll. Not knocking you here, but it's also sort of annoying when a student leaves before the rolling section leaving an odd number of partner where someone has to sit out. My last gym, 2 students starting doing this and it was a small morning class to begin with so needless to say it became disappointing.

But basically upper belts like yourself can train however you want since at this point your in charge of your own development.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

This. I don't knock anyone's choices regarding what martial art they practice. If you want to practice a TMA with little or no contact, that is your decision. But BJJ is a full contact combat sport. If you're healthy and not rolling, then you might as well not do BJJ at all.

Yeah, I really didn't mean my post as an insult. Part of the beauty of BJJ is that it is a living art that grows and changes based on encountering live resistance from another person. The techniques are beautiful to us because of their effectiveness proven in combat. If you NEVER spar for your whole BJJ journey then you are never going to get the full depth and beauty of the art.

I hope this comes across right, but Aikido is "difficult". It's difficult in the same way that dancing is difficult. To develop harmony with a partner for its flowing and artsy demos does take a long time and a lot of work to make look nice. If someone is not cut out for the difficulty of sparring BJJ, in which lies its beauty, then maybe their time would be better spent developing something else. Because like I said, they will NEVER get the true depth of understanding and mastery of BJJ without sparring.


EDIT And when I say someone who never spars in BJJ, I don't mean a guy who has been doing it for a long time and now has some debilitating condition or injury that makes it hard. That guy has understood that without sparring, there is no BJJ.

I'm talking about the white belt who never spars from the first day he steps on the mat, until the day he breaths his last breath.

 

[Quebec Nick]

Personnaly, I wouldn't care if a school was 100% technical with pretty much no sparring at all, just like a kung fu class or a karate class.

They wouldn't be in the competition circuit so we shouldn't care, the top students would understand that they need some sparring to do the real thing and they would just switch to a ''contact'' academy. Even if they give out belts, why would I care if I don't see them in competitions.

It's a really beautiful sport and the heavy sparring isn't for everyone, if I have major health issues I would love to have a place where I can continue learning, do some drilling and even some flow rolling.

I love martial arts and for many reasons I started a little bit older than I wished, I can assure you that I would even do Aikido if I had a choice between staying at home doing nothing and doing a ''soft'' martial art.

 

[DatCutman]

I think it presents a logical dishonesty. To learn jiu jitsu, and to truly know the techniques, you have to experience them against a fully resisting opponent. If you concede that you are not truly learning how to use the techniques, but merely getting a small bit of exercise while drilling, then you move on to the next issue. Namely, why BJJ technical drilling? If it is a health issue, there are numerous other physical activities that would provide more physical activity than move drilling only BJJ (jogging, handball, yoga, golf). So if we agree that it isn't a good way to learn jiu jitsu, and it isn't a good way to stay in shape, then what use is it beyond LARP'ing?

 

[Foppa21]

Since your an upper belt(purple and higher) you basically get a pass for not rolling after class most of the time. It's assumed you paid your dues, have the skills, etc.

But I think it's different for white and blue belts. You basically should roll after drilling if time or injury is not an issue. Like someone said, you don't want to be that newish or lower level guy who doesn't roll. Not knocking you here, but it's also sort of annoying when a student leaves before the rolling section leaving an odd number of partner where someone has to sit out. My last gym, 2 students starting doing this and it was a small morning class to begin with so needless to say it became disappointing.

But basically upper belts like yourself can train however you want since at this point your in charge of your own development.

I don't need a pass, but thanks lol.

Don't get me wrong, I get grief for it from my teammates sometimes. But if I gotta go back to work or get home, I'm leaving. Sorry, but BJJ ain't worth getting be fired for (yeah it's a bit extreme but it's possible).

In the last few months, I've been lucky. I moved offices so I've been closer to the academy and can attend the odd lunch time class. I also have a few team mates that've been good enough to get there early/stay late to do extra rounds with me before or after because I have appointments that don't coincide with class time if they can.

Odd numbers are annoying, but hey, I could be the odd one that makes it a even numbered group when I leave.

Look into the reasons why a person doesn't roll. If they understand that they probably won't progress as fast by not rolling and can accept that, it's their life let them live it. Just encourage them to.

 

[Foppa21]

I think it presents a logical dishonesty. To learn jiu jitsu, and to truly know the techniques, you have to experience them against a fully resisting opponent. If you concede that you are not truly learning how to use the techniques, but merely getting a small bit of exercise while drilling, then you move on to the next issue. Namely, why BJJ technical drilling? If it is a health issue, there are numerous other physical activities that would provide more physical activity than move drilling only BJJ (jogging, handball, yoga, golf). So if we agree that it isn't a good way to learn jiu jitsu, and it isn't a good way to stay in shape, then what use is it beyond LARP'ing?

You're going to have to explain "logical dishonesty" to me. I actually googled the term and nothing came up.

Maybe that's all some people want. As long as that's what people want and it's explained to them, it's their choice. On the other side of the equation, if a instructor:

• Encourages students to roll
• Tells them they will get better, faster by rolling
• Tells a student that they will find it harder to promote them without seeing them roll

and the student still doesn't want to/can't roll even though they enjoy the environment and other aspects of the sport, do they point them to another gym/sport/activity (and thereby saying no to money).

Also, as a weekend golfer (I'll play a round to 2 a week to hang out and catch up with some buddies) I get way more exercise out of my hour long session on the mat vs a 4 hour round.

It's not a black and white issue

 

[BJJChess]

I do Judo now and even though my body hurts after training I couldn't imagine training without randori. I was afraid of injuries too but at some point you simply have to forget about it and do the thing. Without actual resistance no technique will work. Good luck!

 

[liuk3]

I know of a lot of schools that have a separate beginner's class where they just do drilling or positional sparring. No actual sparring in the beginner class. I guess that it is possible that someone could just stay in the white belt class for life and never choose to move beyond the beginner class.