America’s not so great military

[lfd0311]

at the start of the war, Afghanistan had ONLY 75 KM of paved road IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.....(and those were all paved by the Russians)

you don't even need a driver's license to drive there, b/c it wasn't a thing until like yesterday

I talk about that later in the thread. This OP is clearly a young kid who just got turned onto something that he sees as new ideas and is here to let all of know how the world really is.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

also weird, that say during the Turkish coup recently they didn't even remotely mess w/ Incirlik (our Air Base in Turkey)

Russians had an air base (K2) right next to ours in Kygrzstan (Manas AB), and yet they never remotely attempted nothing

We have mad bases in Korea, Taiwan, and Okinawa and yet N. Korea and China have done exactly jack and shit. We have bases in Qatar, Kuwait, and Bahrain and....nothing

For such an apparently 'weak military' we have groupings right next to our major 'enemies' and none of them do anything...

just saying

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Yeah, this is pretty much why I’m more libertarian/classical liberal, haha. Live and let live.

So there’s a shit ton to unpack here. Agreed that we could have done better. Personally, I loved the strategy prior to the invasion: keep a no fly zone, economic sanctions, and keep the evil asshole known as Saddam in a box. If he stepped out of line, launch a few tomahawk missiles at his neighborhood, and let him know that the shit he’s pulling isn’t cool. Full-scale war was unnecessary.

We actually did spend a lot of time talking to locals, trying to work through and with them. The problems were this: we spent years putting stuff like their army back together after we dismantled it. Oops. We shouldn’t have done that. We also didn’t realize how little their culture cares about emulating our values, meaning that they were never going to form in our image. We also didn’t appreciate their lack of work ethic. Seriously. I used to joke that Iraqis want a strong man to tell them what to do... and then go do it for them. You can’t make someone build a country if they want to keep sittin on their porches, drinking chai tea while the women do all the work. Another problem was that the locals didn’t all agree what they wanted to do, and when they did, it wasn’t always a good thing. They all agreed that protecting their cousins, even when that cousin was a vicious killer or bomb maker, was more important than building a fair justice system. Bummer. But we tried to get them to come along, listening about what they wanted in terms of schools, clinics, playgrounds, etc., but it just wasn’t enough. How do you make people want more for themselves though? How do you make someone develop the pride needed to build a great society? We can’t even do that here across the board. We have problems with motivation and culture in every ghetto, trailer park, and holler across America. How the hell can we fix another country when we can’t even get all our own citizens to work as hard as they can, get them all the tools they need for the job, and give them every incentive to make their lives and communities better?

Completely agree with how we should have handled things. Saddam was a necessary evil. Whatever he was doing was working, and all we had to do, if anything, was just contain him so he didn't destabilize the rest of the region.

Interesting points.
It makes a lot more sense why things failed so fantastically. As you said, i believe a key mistake was thinking that they wanted what we had from the get go. We can't agree what we want in our own country, so it was pretty foolish to think we could get another group to pen down, agree, and implement how to run a country of their own.
I imagine it's hard to do practically anything in Afghanistan or Iraq on account of the weather and terrain though. Who wants to do construction, or much of anything in that heat? It just seems like an area of the world that was doomed to always be left behind in the stone age.

In the end, people have to fail or succeed on their own merits though. Hopefilly that's something America has learned from now on. No amount of time, blood, or money will force someone to do things they truly don't want to do
Thanks for the post. Interesting to read something from a knowledgeable perspective

 

[Pessimystic]

It shouldn't have to be said, but here we are: all of the wars post WWII were run by politics. That, plus beaming the bloody details into America's living room in Technicolor doesn't sit well with a squeamish electorate. Let our guys loose and watch how quickly any country folds. Problem is, our military is hamstrung by politicians more interested in votes than winning wars.
I always thought that the more vicious, brutal and unrelentingly pitiless an army is, the quicker wars will be over.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

When a person gives MULTIPLE examples, you need to actually direct your question to WHICH PART YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND if you want CLARIFICATION.

Caps, bold and underlined so you can focus on the points...derp...contribute...derp.

Calm down

 

[HunterSdVa29]

It shouldn't have to be said, but here we are: all of the wars post WWII were run by politics. That, plus beaming the bloody details into America's living in Technicolor doesn't sit well with a squeamish electorate. Let our guys loose and watch how quickly any country folds. Problem is, our military is hamstrung by politicians more interested in votes than winning wars.
I always thought that the more vicious, brutal and unrelentingly pitiless an army is, the quicker wars will be over.

under current ROEs and EOF procedures, you can't even fire unless you are in extreme imminent danger, i.e. you are literally taking incoming rounds yourself or indirect fire from rockets/mortars/artillery

We had rounds pinging off our vehicles, but couldn't fire back b/c of 'collateral damage' and we weren't in 'enough' danger

Good times

 

[Edgy Brah]

Without a body count you can't have had great battles. Commissioned officers can't get medals for not leading and winning great battles. Ergo, you need shit decisions to make a great battle that produces a body count. You can quantify your loses by coffins sent home whereas you can make up the number of enemy combatants killed. Hakuna Matata.

 

[That209]

The JTF is a very recognized, and known to be very competent. However, that quote being your basis for how our ground forces are less than able?

Commanders commend adjacent forces frequently, I think a grain ought to be taken. However regular seal platoons are not the same as JTF, they're not tiered the same. Therefore not a like comparison. Not really the quote worthy of basing your argument around.

I've worked with allot of people, many countries, we have our equals amongst a small handful of elite units. However, our basic soldier is superior, in equipment and training than anyone else and we have more than most in our 'standing army'. Disagree if you'd like that's my observation. We are less than successful not because we're inferior but because insurgencies are incredibly difficult to defeat. Any insurgent war sings that song.

Oh I know. I know USA is the strongest militarily. In an all out war they will pretty much always come out on top. Better training, weapons, tactics from experience, etc. I know the SEALs and JTF are both elite units and used for different things. I just found the quote interesting and it does mean something. We’re both elite and better at certain things. I wasn’t trying to imply we’d beat America in a war. We would get raped. I’m just pointing out the facts from history of those wars. I’m not talking shit, I’m posting factual statements that came from your own people. People love to disagree but you can find people in the military talking about it, higher ranked guys. Other idiot thinks Korea was a win. It wasn’t.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

They are not doing so well now due to lack of leadership, despite having cratefuls of cash thrown at them.

Russia is taking over the arctic regions and China is taking over southeast Asia and Africa.

 

[That209]

Easily a stalemate, if you even want to call it it's own independent war. Really nothing more than a theater of the napoleonic wars



Seeing as our only real goal was the preservation of South Korea, which we achomplished while proving that we could beat the Chinese Army on the battlefield, a long way from the US, in a country that borders China, I'd say that one's a win.


A political one, not a military one. We never lost a battle.



Not at all. What terrible news sources are you reading? Afghanistan is obviously not going the way we'd like. ISIS, if you hadn't noticed, has been defeated in Iraq, and the Government and military we built there defeated them. That's a win for us.

America had two objectives in Korea. You’re right the preservation, but failed to unify them. That’s why it’s a draw.

1812, Britain wanted to stop your trading. Canada being Britain’s bitch joined in. You were stopped from trading. That was the objective. That objective was accomplished. Trading with the enemy was considered an act of war and still is. Understand?

It can be considered a draw, but in the end Britain and France for what they wanted. They didn’t get anything else from the US anymore, that also can consider it a draw. It’s a military draw, I guess. Politically..

I was originally talking about wars you’ve won since WWII anyway, but now we’re talking about way too much shit at once lol.

I know ISIS has been pushed out of Iraq, but they’re still around. They’re estimated to have over 20,000 idiots. Many probably still live in Iraq, they just decided to quiet down.

Don’t be surprised if another fight breaks out there some day.

 

[My Spot]

under current ROEs and EOF procedures, you can't even fire unless you are in extreme imminent danger, i.e. you are literally taking incoming rounds yourself or indirect fire from rockets/mortars/artillery

We had rounds pinging off our vehicles, but couldn't fire back b/c of 'collateral damage' and we weren't in 'enough' danger

Good times

You can't fire back if they're too close to the Pakistani border either. So dudes can lob mortars and rockets all day and not even worry about getting retaliation.

 

[lfd0311]

America had two objectives in Korea. You’re right the preservation, but failed to unify them. That’s why it’s a draw.

That wasn't the US' goal. That was MacArtuthur's goal, and only for a short time. The Chinese invasion of North Korea ended that almost as soon as it started.

1812, Britain wanted to stop your trading. Canada being Britain’s bitch joined in. You were stopped from trading. That was the objective. That objective was accomplished. Trading with the enemy was considered an act of war and still is. Understand?

That does not make sense. If Britain had cut of American trade, the US would not have become the country it eventually became.

I know ISIS has been pushed out of Iraq, but they’re still around. They’re estimated to have over 20,000 idiots. Many probably still live in Iraq, they just decided to quiet down.

Don’t be surprised if another fight breaks out there some day.

Islamic Terror is always going to be an issue. That's just life.

 

[That209]

That wasn't the US' goal. That was MacArtuthur's goal, and only for a short time. The Chinese invasion of North Korea ended that almost as soon as it started.



That does not make sense. If Britain had cut of American trade, the US would not have become the country it eventually became.




Islamic Terror is always going to be an issue. That's just life.

Their religion has them stuck way in the past and they’re not going to change any time soon.

 

[lfd0311]

under current ROEs and EOF procedures, you can't even fire unless you are in extreme imminent danger, i.e. you are literally taking incoming rounds yourself or indirect fire from rockets/mortars/artillery

We had rounds pinging off our vehicles, but couldn't fire back b/c of 'collateral damage' and we weren't in 'enough' danger

Good times

When I was in Iraq in 04, a squad in my company was out on patrol when a half shackled dude with a freshly cut off ear ran up to their patrol and told them that he had just managed to escape from a tourture house about a block away while his captors stepped away for a second. He told them he'd show them right where it was, and that it was a heavily guarded two story building about a block down the road. This was just a simple foot patrol. The Squad leader got on the horn and called back the the talk and told them the story, and requested the QRF come assist with company vehicles and heavy weapons. He was told that he was not in charge of the company and he didn't rate demanding company assets. They had to tell the shackled, bleeding man, thanks but no thanks, we aren't interested, you may go now.

In 2008, one of my buddies from my first tour was now a Scout Sniper in our battalion. They'd go out for days at a time and set up were supposed to be counter IED ambushes. They'd lay in postions for a few days over high IED areas and call in dudes laying in IEDs in broad daylight and ask for permission to take them out, get denied. They'd just ask that they track their movement as much as possible so they could try to id them for arrest later, then call EOD to come get the bombs.

 

[lfd0311]

Their religion has them stuck way in the past and they’re not going to change any time soon.

No, it's not. So give up and go home is not an option.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

When I was in Iraq in 04, a squad in my company was out on patrol when a half shackled dude with a freshly cut off ear ran up to their patrol and told them that he had just managed to escape from a tourture house about a block away while his captors stepped away for a second. He told them he'd show them right where it was, and that it was a heavily guarded two story building about a block down the road. This was just a simple foot patrol. The Squad leader got on the horn and called back the the talk and told them the story, and requested the QRF come assist with company vehicles and heavy weapons. He was told that he was not in charge of the company and he didn't rate demanding company assets. They had to tell the shackled, bleeding man, thanks but no thanks, we aren't interested, you may go now.

In 2008, one of my buddies from my first tour was now a Scout Sniper in our battalion. They'd go out for days at a time and set up were supposed to be counter IED ambushes. They'd lay in postions for a few days over high IED areas and call in dudes laying in IEDs in broad daylight and ask for permission to take them out, get denied. They'd just ask that they track their movement as much as possible so they could try to id them for arrest later, then call EOD to come get the bombs.

My younger brother was a Mortarmen in the Marines, and was in the Battle of Najaf in 04 (in the massive cemetery). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Najaf_(2004)
He was in CAAT Bravo and the initial QRF that responded, and was hit by a mortar lobbed from the Mosque in the cemetery. Naturally, we couldn't fire back into the Mosque as it was 'sacred', yet it didn't stop them from killing 4 of his dudes and severing his femoral artery in one of the blasts. He's 100% disabled now, can't feel his entire left arm. He did get 18 confirmed in w/ the SAW before getting hit tho

 

[lfd0311]

My younger brother was a Mortarmen in the Marines, and was in the Battle of Najaf in 04 (in the massive cemetery). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Najaf_(2004)
He was in CAAT Bravo and the initial QRF that responded, and was hit by a mortar lobbed from the Mosque in the cemetery. Naturally, we couldn't fire back into the Mosque as it was 'sacred', yet it didn't stop them from killing 4 of his dudes and severing his artery in one of the blasts. He's 100% disabled now, can't feel his entire left arm. He did get 18 confirmed in w/ the SAW before getting hit tho

I was in Mahmadiyah with the Cav unit that was in that battle. They had some wild stories about having to go down into those catacombs and clear the dudes out of there, at night. 04/05 was the Wild West.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

I was in Mahmadiyah with the Cav unit that was in that battle. They had some wild stories about having to go down into those catacombs and clear the dudes out of there, at night. 04/05 was the Wild West.

one of the few situations off the top of my head, the Marines actually had to retreat and wait for the Army b/c the numbers were ridiculous. Well and we couldn't engage fully in the cemetery b/c of rules?

Respect man, seriously. My brother technically died, they revived him, and he's pretty much OK now all things considered. But that wouldn't be so w/o all the help provided.

 

[lfd0311]

one of the few situations off the top of my head, the Marines actually had to retreat and wait for the Army b/c the numbers were ridiculous. Well and we couldn't engage fully in the cemetery b/c of rules?

I don't know. That wouldn't suprise me. I was still back home when all that went down. We didn't get there until I want to say September of 04. That Cav... brigade? does that sound right? essentially took over our AO as they were at that point a surplus unit that was nearing the end of thier time and had been there for like 18 months. They attached our Battalion to them for the elections for the most part, then they rotated them home and replaced them with the unit that killed that little girl.

Respect man, seriously. My brother technically died, they revived him, and he's pretty much OK now all things considered. But that wouldn't be so w/o all the help provided.

That's tough, man. So many stories like that, over so long a period of time. I hope he's doing alright.

 

[Gutter Chris]

When I was in Iraq in 04, a squad in my company was out on patrol when a half shackled dude with a freshly cut off ear ran up to their patrol and told them that he had just managed to escape from a tourture house about a block away while his captors stepped away for a second. He told them he'd show them right where it was, and that it was a heavily guarded two story building about a block down the road. This was just a simple foot patrol. The Squad leader got on the horn and called back the the talk and told them the story, and requested the QRF come assist with company vehicles and heavy weapons. He was told that he was not in charge of the company and he didn't rate demanding company assets. They had to tell the shackled, bleeding man, thanks but no thanks, we aren't interested, you may go now.

In 2008, one of my buddies from my first tour was now a Scout Sniper in our battalion. They'd go out for days at a time and set up were supposed to be counter IED ambushes. They'd lay in postions for a few days over high IED areas and call in dudes laying in IEDs in broad daylight and ask for permission to take them out, get denied. They'd just ask that they track their movement as much as possible so they could try to id them for arrest later, then call EOD to come get the bombs.

My younger brother was a Mortarmen in the Marines, and was in the Battle of Najaf in 04 (in the massive cemetery). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Najaf_(2004)
He was in CAAT Bravo and the initial QRF that responded, and was hit by a mortar lobbed from the Mosque in the cemetery. Naturally, we couldn't fire back into the Mosque as it was 'sacred', yet it didn't stop them from killing 4 of his dudes and severing his femoral artery in one of the blasts. He's 100% disabled now, can't feel his entire left arm. He did get 18 confirmed in w/ the SAW before getting hit tho

Im not a soldier but it would seem to me that maybe perhaps if whoever was in charge actually would have let you kill all the bad guys youd found , dipshits like ts wouldnt be here talking about our military sucks