advise on home defense (guns)

[muaythaitechniq]

I would disagree on the handgun over a shotgun. A handgun requires a bit more proficiency then a shotgun. Putting a 9mm or .40 cal round on target takes a bit of practice and your average handgun owner may only go to the range 1-2 a year. A shotgun, depending on the round, will make a pattern about the size of a bowl or dinner plate.

If you have an intruder in your house, you SHOULD NOT be walking around the house looking for them. You should be in your room, doors locked, with the shotgun pointed at the door and calling the cops.

I’m a firearms instructor and conduct qualifications on rookies/vets 1-2x/month. I only need one day to get someone to proficiently put rounds center mass on target with the shotgun. The pistol usually takes weeks to months and sometimes people can’t qualify.
The best home defense weapon is the Remington 870 with 18” barrel. Here’s the link: Pump Action Shotgun - Model 870 Express Synthetic 18inch - Remington Shotguns

Most law enforcement agencies use this weapon.

Loaded with Federal Premium, 9 pellet, 00 buck with flight control. This round produces a tighter pattern then most rounds.

Don’t buy an AR or any other long gun for home defense. Unless you want to shot through your wall, your neighbors wall and onto the street.

Also, I’ve never had anyone loose bowel control when I racked my shotgun, but I’ve certainly defused a lot of situations when I racked it (I was a street cop for 15 years). If someone is breaking into your house to steal, racking the shotgun will quickly change their minds. If someone is breaking into your house to kill you, rack the shotgun and be prepared for a gun fight.

Buy a trigger lock for the gun and safely store it under your bed.

 

[CinderBlox]

I would disagree on the handgun over a shotgun. A handgun requires a bit more proficiency then a shotgun. Putting a 9mm or .40 cal round on target takes a bit of practice and your average handgun owner may only go to the range 1-2 a year. A shotgun, depending on the round, will make a pattern about the size of a bowl or dinner plate.

If you have an intruder in your house, you SHOULD NOT be walking around the house looking for them. You should be in your room, doors locked, with the shotgun pointed at the door and calling the cops.

I

 

[00 Buck]

Don’t buy an AR or any other long gun for home defense. Unless you want to shot through your wall, your neighbors wall and onto the street.

Wrong. Not all .223/5.56 ammo has to be military steel core or FMJ. When loaded properly with rounds like hornady TAP, some report LESS penetration than HP pistol rounds.

Any round that effectively penetrates on a human body to stop them, will penetrate some building material if you miss, there's no avoiding that.

A good site for anything tactical related with lots of real experts:

Which Hornady TAP for HD? - M4Carbine.net Forums

Shotgun wall penetration. - M4Carbine.net Forums

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

Why do you say this?

Someone already mentioned it, but the .40 has a "snappy" recoil that I'm not too fond of.

Go with a 9mm, like a Ruger SR9, Glock 17 or 19, or if you have the money, get a Springfield XD or XDM 9.

Or better yet, get the new Springfield XDM 5.25 that I posted on page 2.

 

[CinderBlox]

Someone already mentioned it, but the .40 has a "snappy" recoil that I'm not too fond of.

Go with a 9mm, like a Ruger SR9, Glock 17 or 19, or if you have the money, get a Springfield XD or XDM 9.

Or better yet, get the new Springfield XDM 5.25 that I posted on page 2.

I did notice that the recoil on the .40 made the gun sort of blow upward.

Well, anyway I'm going to the gun club that is not too far from where I live to test out a couple of options.

I guess I could always get both a Glock and a shotgun. I liked that Mossberg that someone already recommended so I'll check out the XD options as well.

 

[TrueFightGear]

The new springfield XDm is nice. I have an XD, pretty awesome gun.

I would go with the shotgun. It is the best way to go. As it has been mentioned, the sound of chambering a round will make people $&*# themselves. On top of that, you have a huge selection of ammo (possibly non-lethal, if you go beanbags). Options are always nice.

My XD45 is probably my single favorite pistol I've owned.

As for shotguns:

 

[CinderBlox]

My XD45 is probably my single favorite pistol I've owned.

As for shotguns:

jesus christ

 

[muaythaitechniq]

I know you mentioned you liked the pistol gripped shotgun. I would recommend against it, if you think a .40 kicks a bit, try holding a shotgun with a pistol grip. Putting the stock to your shoulder is easier to handle then the pistol grip. Something to think about.

 

[muaythaitechniq]

Wrong. Not all .223/5.56 ammo has to be military steel core or FMJ. When loaded properly with rounds like hornady TAP, some report LESS penetration than HP pistol rounds.

Any round that effectively penetrates on a human body to stop them, will penetrate some building material if you miss, there's no avoiding that.

A good site for anything tactical related with lots of real experts:

Which Hornady TAP for HD? - M4Carbine.net Forums

Shotgun wall penetration. - M4Carbine.net Forums

Good stuff. Have you seen this site before:

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 1

The information and tests this guy does seem more practical and realistic.

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

 

[CinderBlox]

I wonder why she wasn't willing to fire the shogun more?

 

[00 Buck]

Good stuff. Have you seen this site before:

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 1

The information and tests this guy does seem more practical and realistic.

I remember visiting that site a while back. Looks like awesomely fun tests. But it really doesn't tell us what we already don't know IMO, when it comes to dry wall penetration. Effective rounds will penetrate multiple dry walls. Hell, my fists will penetrate dry wall.

World of Warcraft's vid shows what I'm talking about. A low recoiling carbine + red dot is very easy for shooters (especially new ones) to place hits well.

I wonder why she wasn't willing to fire the shogun more?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but that scattergun was clearly beating her up with every shot. Her technique could be better by leaning into it more + bent knees and waist + a better cheek weld, but she might just lack the strength and mindset to really drive/work the gun. And this is with low recoiling double ought buck shot (my member name! hehe!).

Note how with the pistol you only have two points of contact:

Support hand
Firing hand

With a long gun you have 4:

Support hand
Firing hand
cheek weld
shoulder

More contact points = more stable + the longer sight radius of a long gun or red dot enhance user's aim.

The only downside of more contact points is more vibration/movement transferred to the sights when you are shooting on the move, but there are ways around that too.

 

[quatin]

All weapon threads tend to turn to shit on this forum. It's all fun, but since OP seems quite serious. I would suggest you go to a gun forum like TheHighRoad. There's actual fire arms instructors there and would be glad to help.

If you're worried about recoil on a shotgun, there's low-recoil shells available. You can also move to a 20-gauge or a .410. It's more important that you get a good fit with the gun than what caliber it is in. I would not suggest a shotgun without a butt stock.

Here is Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch, a renowned firearms instructor. He runs a defensive shotgun course that I highly recommend.


A .40 s&w is a fine round, however it is expensive. If no one has mentioned this before, practicing with a weapon is far more important than getting the right weapon. I would suggest you become involved with IDPA or USPSA (you can google it). We get together and build a course of fire involving reloading, moving while shooting, changing hands and etc. It's a better way to practice than standing still at a target lane and shooting paper. I run through about 80-100 rounds a match, so consider your budget.

Whatever you end up deciding to get, remember you can become proficient in it through practice. You can use any gun to defend your home as long as you have the proper training and practice.

 

[quatin]

Buy a trigger lock for the gun and safely store it under your bed.

I must interject. Never use a trigger lock or any external/internal safeties on a gun you intend to use for defense. If you want to store the gun while not in use, the only proper way is in a gun safe. A gun being used for self defense has to be in ready mode. IE on your nightstand. You can get a cheap nightstand/side table and nail a soft pistol case to the bottom to function as a sleeve while keeping the gun out of sight. Or you can get a pistol safe and leave it open at night.

You're right about storing a shotgun. I was already wondering where I would safely place something like that. I can't just leave it resting under the bed...

For a long gun, you can also mount a soft shell rifle case to the bottom of the bed or just remember to get it out at night and put it into a safe when you leave.

 

[ChuckSteak]

You'll need far more training to effectively defend yourself with a shotgun in a home than you will with a handgun. Quite simply, the shot gun limits your range of motion, accuracy and firing rate. You said you've fired a few handguns before, did you ever fire a glock? Or a 22? Less consequence to the user, higher magazine capacity, less noise on loading.

With a shotgun, you have to lug that shit through hallways, good luck not being spotted as you enter a hallway or room.

With a shotgun, you have to find an effective way to hide it. Good luck making some 4 foot long hunting rifle hidden in the closet.

And the best defense to a home invasion is preventative, not reactive. Waking up in the middle of the night to engage a fire fight with some cholos is not an effective way of defending your home.

Home owner's insurance, no-window doors with a strong non-key dead-bolt, a basic recording system, an alarm, a loud dog and good neighbors are far more effective and cheaper alternatives to a loaded weapon. But a weapon can be considered once those are all in order. I would much rather know when someone is trying to break in, along with knowing it will take them time to get in, along with knowing a pit bull is going to tear their shit up, along with knowing an alarm will go off as soon as they do get in and the cops are on their way, rather than knowing I can have a John Woo gun blazing showdown with the bad guys from Home Alone.

If your clearing your house because you think/know there is/was an intruder you should hide your weapon?

 

[hunto]

A butt stock with a pistol grip makes controlling shotguns much easier. I use a Speedfeed stock with my Mossberg 88.
Speedfeed 3 Tactical Pistol Grip Buttstock with Integral Magazine Tubes Mossberg 500, 590 12 Gauge Synthetic Black - MidwayUSA

Also, consider a 20 gauge if 12 is too much recoil- and like others have said, there are reduced recoil rounds available for both. #4 buck is the smallest I would go, as shot smaller than that will not penetrate a BG to stop the threat. That old crap about "Would you want to get shot with a load of #9?" is pure bunk, because the issue is not would it hurt or suck to be shot, but will it stop the intruder? Adrenaline can mask a lot of pain and so a flesh wound, which is what birdshot does, will not stop a person intent on doing harm. You want something to make a criminal STOP. That involves either a shot to the CNS or the heart, or sufficient trauma as to make further action undesirable (loss of limb, eyesight, etc.)

Do not lock your weapon for HD. You might as well not have one. In an emergency, fine motor control goes out the window, and you'll be fumbling with the lock when you should be ready. (Can't believe a cop gave this advice). If children are in the house, a gun safe is a far better choice, as Quatin has said.

And a AR/AK is fine for HD- especially the smaller calibers (223 in AR, 5.45x39 in AK). These rounds will not reliably penetrate brick exteriors, so the rounds do not exit the home. Also, .223 is a fragmenting round, and so will not be as dangerous were it to exit as, say, a 7.62x39 round (.225 weighs 55-77 gr, 7.62x39 weighs 124 or 154gr). With home invasions involving multiple intruders increasing, a 30-round mag-fed weapon makes a lot of sense compared to a 5-or 7-shot 12 ga. An AK74 in 5.45 has negligible recoil, easy follow up shots, and is maneuverable in tight places (especially with a folding stock, or without a stock at all).

 

[Fearnight]

How to scare away an intruder:

 

[WhiskeyPunch]

Any of them...just go down to your local gun store and get a 12 gauge with the shortest barrel possible. The clerk should point you in the right direction. I recommend a turkey shotgun setup that has the full handle.

 

[Lord of Lies]

Exactly, please don't listen to half the morons in this thread (did this start in Mayberry?).

For pistols, 9mm. The real world stopping power difference between 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP are very close. 9mm is the easiest and cheapest to shoot. Guns to look at are Glocks, Springfiled XD's and Smith and Wesson M&P's. All good guns at good prices (before someone chimes in about an HK or other pistols that are double the price).

For a revolver, .357. This allows you to shoot either .38 Special or .357 Magnum. In this category both Ruger and Smith and Wesson make good revolvers (I prefer Rugers).

Shotguns, Remington or Mossberg, 12 gauge. Learn to shoot it well enough and you can manage the recoil (plus, there is low recoil home defense ammo available). No .410 as someone mentioned above.

AR-15, any decent manufacturer. As someone said above, loaded with something like Hornady TAP the penetration through walls can be reduced.

Penetration is a two edged sword. You don't want it going through multiple walls and hitting someone else, but penetration is needed to put down/kill and intruder.

Go shoot and see what you're comfortable with. I see you're in Phoenix, a place like Scottsdale Gun Club is a great place to go. They have an indoor range and rent a lot of different guns. Plus, they also offer different training classes.

All weapon threads tend to turn to shit on this forum. It's all fun, but since OP seems quite serious. I would suggest you go to a gun forum like TheHighRoad. There's actual fire arms instructors there and would be glad to help.

 

[CinderBlox]

Exactly, please don't listen to half the morons in this thread (did this start in Mayberry?).

For pistols, 9mm. The real world stopping power difference between 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP are very close. 9mm is the easiest and cheapest to shoot. Guns to look at are Glocks, Springfiled XD's and Smith and Wesson M&P's. All good guns at good prices (before someone chimes in about an HK or other pistols that are double the price).

For a revolver, .357. This allows you to shoot either .38 Special or .357 Magnum. In this category both Ruger and Smith and Wesson make good revolvers (I prefer Rugers).

Shotguns, Remington or Mossberg, 12 gauge. Learn to shoot it well enough and you can manage the recoil (plus, there is low recoil home defense ammo available). No .410 as someone mentioned above.

AR-15, any decent manufacturer. As someone said above, loaded with something like Hornady TAP the penetration through walls can be reduced.

Penetration is a two edged sword. You don't want it going through multiple walls and hitting someone else, but penetration is needed to put down/kill and intruder.

Go shoot and see what you're comfortable with. I see you're in Phoenix, a place like Scottsdale Gun Club is a great place to go. They have an indoor range and rent a lot of different guns. Plus, they also offer different training classes.

Thanks. And yes, I did start this in Mayberry because I honestly did not know that this subforum existed.

I really appreciate all of the advice I've received. I was being directed by a guy who claimed he "knew everything" and was trying to just sell me a gun, sight unseen. I'm trying to gather as much info as I can. I've found my way onto some other forums that have been helpful as well.

If anyone is in the Phoenix area would you recommend a particular gun club for lessons? I live semi-close to Shooter's World and I've also heard Caswell's is pretty good. Before I purchase something I want to have the opportunity to test a few out at the range but I needed to narrow it down to a couple of options so I don't blow a ton of money renting a bunch of guns.

I'll try the a 9mm as well as the 20 and 12 gauges.