why Kyokushin never thought of implementing open hand strikes to the head?

[Charlitos1988]

Originally Mas Oyama didn't like gloves so he invented the bare knuckle Karate rules with no head punching because in his Dojo he allowed them and was very bloody.

But why he or his older students never had the idea to keep competition without gloves but allow open hand strikes to the head?

Like heel of the hand as in PANCRASE?

Bas Rutten used this at a high level, so why Kyokushin older ones never got this idea?

Or even Nowadays that MMA is so popular they don't think about implementing open hand strikes, because now they already saw the effectiveness of this technique in Pancrase (which by the way is also Japanese so....).

Why they don't even consider that change?

The only they do (talking about off shots) is glove karate with boxing gloves or Daido Juku with helmet.......

Is just so hard to implement an idea that was already proved effective?

That really piss me, I'm not a karateka but today effectiveness should be rethink inside Kyokushin groups.

Because it should be the strongest Karate!

 

[Jukai]

Open handed strikes was implemented in Pancrease to prevent you from breaking your hand...

It did NOT prevent you from shattering faces and causing concussions.

The "no strike to the head" rule in Kyokushin was to prevent the latter, not the former. The people competing in these tournaments were not professionals getting paid, and you can break your nose just as easy with a palm strike as with a closed fist.

It was either gloves or no head strikes, and they choose the latter because you could still condition your knuckles to be hella hard with the latter.

 

[Azam]

I think it had less to do with breaking your hands and more to do with the fact that many did not envision fighting for a living - they worked for a living - turning up to work the next day with a cut/awful face would not look very good to your employer and you might be reprimanded.

I also think something that influenced the decision was Sosai Oyama's own sense of what karate or martial arts should be; a long life goal/tool of self improvement and the aspect of martial arts he thought was most important - the mental.

Punching to the head with gloves or using open hands is extremely harmful to long term health and kinda pisses over the self-improvement aspect since you're killing your mental capacity. I think that also he valued the bare knuckle aspect as it was more conducive to the mental aspect in a way that was much safer & aligned with self improvement - you're not getting your brain knocked constantly for years on end decreasing your mental capacity.

Of course as well it had to do with retaining students & making long term training more attractive/safer.

That said though Sosai encouraged students to cross-train, anything to benefit themselves & their karate.

 

[MarxP]

I think it had less to do with breaking your hands and more to do with the fact that many did not envision fighting for a living - they worked for a living - turning up to work the next day with a cut/awful face would not look very good to your employer and you might be reprimanded.

I also think something that influenced the decision was Sosai Oyama's own sense of what karate or martial arts should be; a long life goal/tool of self improvement and the aspect of martial arts he thought was most important - the mental.

Punching to the head with gloves or using open hands is extremely harmful to long term health and kinda pisses over the self-improvement aspect since you're killing your mental capacity. I think that also he valued the bare knuckle aspect as it was more conducive to the mental aspect in a way that was much safer & aligned with self improvement - you're not getting your brain knocked constantly for years on end decreasing your mental capacity.

Of course as well it had to do with retaining students & making long term training more attractive/safer.

That said though Sosai encouraged students to cross-train, anything to benefit themselves & their karate.

Well said, brother!

 

[shinkyoku]

Originally Mas Oyama didn't like gloves so he invented the bare knuckle Karate rules with no head punching because in his Dojo he allowed them and was very bloody.

But why he or his older students never had the idea to keep competition without gloves but allow open hand strikes to the head?

Like heel of the hand as in PANCRASE?

Bas Rutten used this at a high level, so why Kyokushin older ones never got this idea?

Or even Nowadays that MMA is so popular they don't think about implementing open hand strikes, because now they already saw the effectiveness of this technique in Pancrase (which by the way is also Japanese so....).

Why they don't even consider that change?

The only they do (talking about off shots) is glove karate with boxing gloves or Daido Juku with helmet.......

Is just so hard to implement an idea that was already proved effective?

That really piss me, I'm not a karateka but today effectiveness should be rethink inside Kyokushin groups.

Because it should be the strongest Karate!

as for "why", see azam and Jukai

 

[Charlitos1988]

I think it had less to do with breaking your hands and more to do with the fact that many did not envision fighting for a living - they worked for a living - turning up to work the next day with a cut/awful face would not look very good to your employer and you might be reprimanded.

I also think something that influenced the decision was Sosai Oyama's own sense of what karate or martial arts should be; a long life goal/tool of self improvement and the aspect of martial arts he thought was most important - the mental.

Punching to the head with gloves or using open hands is extremely harmful to long term health and kinda pisses over the self-improvement aspect since you're killing your mental capacity. I think that also he valued the bare knuckle aspect as it was more conducive to the mental aspect in a way that was much safer & aligned with self improvement - you're not getting your brain knocked constantly for years on end decreasing your mental capacity.

Of course as well it had to do with retaining students & making long term training more attractive/safer.

That said though Sosai encouraged students to cross-train, anything to benefit themselves & their karate.

I never thought about character development in Kyokushin I thought it was more "strongest karate go challenge Muay Thai".

Maybe Oyama tried to unite effectiveness in combat plus the "DO" of traditional Karate's like Shotokan and Goju Ryu.

 

[Charlitos1988]

I originally thought Kyokushin was the black sheep of Karate and like to challenge other Karate's and after winning against them it proclaimed the name "strongest Karate"

 

[shinkyoku]

I originally thought Kyokushin was the black sheep of Karate and like to challenge other Karate's and after winning against them it proclaimed the name "strongest Karate"

There was a lot of challenges in kyokushin early history, but they were usually made TO kyokushin. In the old hombu (HQ dojo) there was alarm-bells set that would call the uchidechi (live-in/full-time students) running, ready to face a "dojo-storm", and according to the stories, it happened.
Fighters from other styles went to kyokushin to learn to fight, and many established styles took offence to that.
But kyokushin itself was never aggressive against other styles, or went around making challenges.

The "strongest karate" name was just a 70ies PR gimmick, referring to that kyokushin was full contact when all the others were light-contact point only.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Can you actually do lots of damage with a slap? I just slapped and punched myself in the face right now to see how it feels. The slap stings on the surface. It stings the skin. The punch felt like it traveled deeper into my face. I may have to do several more trials to really make sure.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I originally thought Kyokushin was the black sheep of Karate and like to challenge other Karate's and after winning against them it proclaimed the name "strongest Karate"

They do hold open tourneys and let other styles compete in them.

 

[shinkyoku]

Can you actually do lots of damage with a slap? I just slapped and punched myself in the face right now to see how it feels. The slap stings on the surface. It stings the skin. The punch felt like it traveled deeper into my face. I may have to do several more trials to really make sure.

Very funny.
No you cannot do much damage with a slap. You can however do much damage with a palm strike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiGQIh-6Kdo

And ofcourse a palmstrike that does not connect correctly can look very much like a slap.

 

[Azam]

I never thought about character development in Kyokushin I thought it was more "strongest karate go challenge Muay Thai".

Maybe Oyama tried to unite effectiveness in combat plus the "DO" of traditional Karate's like Shotokan and Goju Ryu.

If you read any of Sosai Oyama's books or watch footage of the man himself - he stresses the mental aspect of martial arts more than anything else. He has on many occassions said technique/stamina are what constitutes kumite - but technique/stamina will only take you so far. Mental toughness/martial spirit is what allows you to push through your own physical limits - in my mind at least the person with the greater will & sense of purpose will prevail, if not immediately - eventually.

People often underrate or under-value how powerful willpower/spirit can be. It's only when you've reached your limit or are in a tough place that you realise how important it can be. Pain is a great way to test & develop your will/martial spirit - knockdown karate is extremely painful when you remove (head strikes/open hand strikes to the face) because you remove the easiest way to strike/take out an opponent - it's much harder to head kick someone - the result you get is extremely gruelling matches in knockdown karate, where will/mental toughness is usually the dividing factor - i.e. who can push through? Mental toughness is what really builds character - and you get it in regularly in training, more so in an environment where your physical limit is regularly being tested - both in kihon or kumite.

Sometimes it does come at the expense of what you realistically would expect - a punch in the face and that is one of the cons - mental toughness/conditioning being a pro. It depends though on which karateka you're watching & his/her style - there are plenty of defensive kyokushin fighters that understand angles/movement/parrying etc etc - for some though the tactic is to slug it out with volume - you get a mix of both.

At least for me - I don't think there is anything wrong with knockdown rules - ideally though I'd prefer Kyokushin exactly as it is now but with MMA stand up style sparring but normal knockdown rules have their place.

 

[Tayski]

Azam and Shinkyoku pretty much answered your question. Kyokushin Karate is a martial art not just a fight sport.

As Azam said, the objective of Kyokushin Karate was not to fight professionally. Those who want to do that can turn to Kickboxing, Muay Thai or other fight sports.
Also, guys who compete in fight sports tend to stop training altogether when they pass their fighting prime, then turning into coaching or stopping completely. Kyokushin training is for life whatever your age, and the no punching to the head helps preserve your brain cells. I'm yet to meet a Knockdown fighter who's punch drunk, and I've met and trained with guys with 20+ years of fighting in tournaments.

There are many formats to fight with head punches if that's what you're interested in, such as the ones mentioned by shinkyoku or another example: www.profightkarate.com

I never thought about character development in Kyokushin I thought it was more "strongest karate go challenge Muay Thai".

Then you don't understand what Kyokushin is about. You should do some more research about it.

 

[aries]

Can you actually do lots of damage with a slap? I just slapped and punched myself in the face right now to see how it feels. The slap stings on the surface. It stings the skin. The punch felt like it traveled deeper into my face. I may have to do several more trials to really make sure.

Who's talking about slaps? They are talking about palm strikes with the heel of the palm. The heel of the hand is made up of a lots to tightly packed bones - the carpals. They are much denser than any other part of the hand. It makes it virtually impregnable to damage compared to the knuckles plus you have a nice cushion of fleshy padding built over them. Also palm striking pretty much negates any chance of wrist sprains as the impact point is aligned perfectly down your wrist.

 

[Tayski]

Who's talking about slaps? They are talking about palm strikes with the heel of the palm. The heel of the hand is made up of a lots to tightly packed bones - the carpals. They are much denser than any other part of the hand. It makes it virtually impregnable to damage compared to the knuckles plus you have a nice cushion of fleshy padding built over them. Also palm striking pretty much negates any chance of wrist sprains as the impact point is aligned perfectly down your wrist.

I knew about this but not in such detail, thanks for that.
It's indeed much better to hit someone's jaw with your palm rather than your knuckles to avoid injuring yourself.

 

[wang xiangzhai]

Can you actually do lots of damage with a slap? I just slapped and punched myself in the face right now to see how it feels. The slap stings on the surface. It stings the skin. The punch felt like it traveled deeper into my face. I may have to do several more trials to really make sure.

Aries has already has show you the configuration of the bones in thebase of the palm. The momentum is a bit more compact than in a punch, as there are always power leakeages in the wrist; also the snap backwards of the hand adds a little extra spice at the end. Think of it as a middle term between an elbow and a fist, so in some circunstances - like, say, an uppercut in short range - it might work well.

Here, not the best of examples, but you get the general idea:

[YT]4tXvAq_Y33c[/YT]

Now, i know you like to try things on yourself - and thats awesome: first hand knowledge is best knowledge - but, trust me, you done wanna put your nose where those "slaps" end

 

[aries]

For those guys who prefer to throw fists. Here's a little technique that struck a chord with me even coming from a boxing background. And it makes for an easy transition from a straight knuckle punch to a palm strike without any major mechanical adjustments. The technique starts at 1:33

 

[MartialArtScience]

Can you actually do lots of damage with a slap? I just slapped and punched myself in the face right now to see how it feels. The slap stings on the surface. It stings the skin. The punch felt like it traveled deeper into my face. I may have to do several more trials to really make sure.

LOL but of course you know how women hit LOL

 

[JohnPJones]

Can you actually do lots of damage with a slap? I just slapped and punched myself in the face right now to see how it feels. The slap stings on the surface. It stings the skin. The punch felt like it traveled deeper into my face. I may have to do several more trials to really make sure.

its always great when someone makes their ignorance so readily available to see

 

[MadSquabbles500]

its always great when someone makes their ignorance so readily available to see

Well then just stand in front of the mirror and dont move. You dont need anyone else's attention.