Why do people submit to authority?

[ZroC]

Thought this vid was worth some discussion. It basically discusses how seemingly good people can allow themselves to be goaded into doing bad things for authority figures. It discusses various studied on the matter, including one where a phony scientist performing a fake scientific exam manages to talk participants into electrocuting a man to death simply by wearing a white lab suit and asking him to continue. Of course he wasn't really electrocuting the person, but he didn't know that.

Full discussion here:


this is the aforementioned study in 1960


again in 2009 here but there's plenty more on youtube


For more reading material check out The Third Wave study.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave
Details on how a teacher managed to turn his pupils into an almost full blown fascist party in a matter of days

Stanford prison experiment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
Twenty-four male students out of seventy-five were selected to take on randomly assigned roles of prisoners and guards in a mock prison situated in the basement of the Stanford psychology building. The participants adapted to their roles well beyond Zimbardo's expectations, as the guards enforced authoritarian measures and ultimately subjected some of the prisoners to psychological torture. Many of the prisoners passively accepted psychological abuse and, at the request of the guards, readily harassed other prisoners who attempted to prevent it. The experiment even affected Zimbardo himself, who, in his role as the superintendent, permitted the abuse to continue. Two of the prisoners quit the experiment early and the entire experiment was abruptly stopped after only six days. Certain portions of the experiment were filmed and excerpts of footage are publicly available.

Original footage of prison experiment

 

[IDL]

We are born into this world looking up to authority, and the merits of authority are engrained into us our whole lives. Some people never question it.

Of course, this makes people easily manipulated as well.

I do get a kick out of the overt examples of advertisers using guys in white coats explaining the benefits of something..

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

The short explanation is that we're social animals and that as units of a group there's only so much we can be expected to understand. We depend on others for information essential to our own survival, and if it wasn't reliable more often than unreliable we wouldn't be around to talk about it.

I've been reading a lot about Milgrim and Zimbardo recently. These guys and their experiments are surrounded by all kinds of hilarity.

Also this would be better in the Mayberry.

 

[Rusk]

Low T,

But if serious i think its the Lack of information and opinion of your own that makes it more likely for you to bow to authority.

For example you no nothing about medicine that's why you should stfu and listen to your doctor, because he knows things you don't know. But if you do have the necessary information you are more sure of your self, and you are more likely to tell the doctor to fuck off with his antidepressants (or whatever).

Same goes for church, government and your mom.

 

[KILL KILL]

The short explanation is that we're social animals and that as units of a group there's only so much we can be expected to understand. We depend on others for information essential to our own survival, and if it wasn't reliable more often than unreliable we wouldn't be around to talk about it.

I've been reading a lot about Milgrim and Zimbardo recently. These guys and their experiments are surrounded by all kinds of hilarity.

Also this would be better in the Mayberry.

agreed. I had a teacher that actually performed the study presented in the OP. She hooked a girl up to a machine that would shock her if she answered questions incorrectly. The more she got wrong, the higher the voltage. Little did we know, the girl was in on it from the start and an amazing actress. She was crying before anyone stood up and stopped it.

I just sat there like a moron because i assumed she was just being a pansy lol.

All living creatures are submissive to authority. it's instinctual.

 

[Pupi]

Very few people are leaders and most people are content being told what to do, because they require direction in their life. People think that those who are respected and in power are there for a reason and can be fully trusted with the keys to the kingdom, but oftentimes that is not the case, as was the case with Hitler.

People like the easy way towards success and what easier way to that than doing what you're told and not asking questions? I've seen it at jobs all of the time. Management doesn't like those people that always ask questions and want to improve things. Management, oftentimes, and from my experiences, like people that do as they are told.

 

[louieb]

Because the rich seem to be the "authority" and we have preconceived notions of them making the right choices in life especially with their work. If Bill Gates came up to you and said "I'd like you to kill some baby rabbits for a thousand dollars each. It'll help the internet cure cancer."

You and me both will believe killing those baby rabbits is the right thing to do!

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

agreed. I had a teacher that actually performed the study presented in the OP. She hooked a girl up to a machine that would shock her if she answered questions incorrectly. The more she got wrong, the higher the voltage. Little did we know, the girl was in on it from the start and an amazing actress. She was crying before anyone stood up and stopped it.

I just sat there like a moron because i assumed she was just being a pansy lol.

All living creatures are submissive to authority. it's instinctual.

I think that's a good starting point for how to look at it anyways. Rusk is right that the amount of information you have about the situation and the confidence you have in your interpretation of what's going on play a role too. Milgrim himself actually manipulated multiple variables in later studies to see what other things influenced obedience. The lab instructor being in the room rather than on the phone, and wearing a white coat rather than normal clothes, were things that increased his power.

Milgrim type experiments are almost always unethical if only for the trauma they inflict on the participants. From what I've read it was usually pretty clear that people got really uncomfortable and didn't want to continue, but did anyways. The last button in the original experiment was labelled "XXX" ffs, and the subject supposedly being shocked had stopped responding after previously complaining of a heart condition. In debriefing some participants reported that they knew or felt that they were doing something wrong.

The implications are really quite creepy, the main one being that we hazardously underestimate situational influences on behaviour.

 

[Madmick]

In my experience, the people who are most bothered by other people's submission to authority are, in fact, most bothered that they themselves are not the authority and that these other people are not submitting to them.

It's pretty classic projection psychology.

 

[IDL]

People like the easy way towards success and what easier way to that than doing what you're told and not asking questions? I've seen it at jobs all of the time. Management doesn't like those people that always ask questions and want to improve things. Management, oftentimes, and from my experiences, like people that do as they are told.

haha I can relate to that. In work environments where people are in by seniority and not merit in particular. Some environments are filled with people in 'protect' mode and people that ask questions or change things can be perceived as threatening to their status quo.

The better the people, the less insecure they are I find.

 

[nhbbear]

Very few people are leaders and most people are content being told what to do, because they require direction in their life. People think that those who are respected and in power are there for a reason and can be fully trusted with the keys to the kingdom, but oftentimes that is not the case, as was the case with Hitler.

People like the easy way towards success and what easier way to that than doing what you're told and not asking questions? I've seen it at jobs all of the time. Management doesn't like those people that always ask questions and want to improve things. Management, oftentimes, and from my experiences, like people that do as they are told.

Very good point. I have seen people in command, that are there because better people have stepped out of the way for a person that wanted the authority. And almost all of us, whether we admit it or not, do want someone in charge rather than do everything for ourselves.

People like to believe that the person in charge knows exactly what to do, and while they are giving orders, or making decisions, their calm demeanor may belie the roiling uncertainties underneath.

I want confidence, not arrogance in a leader. I want someone who will step up, but not someone that craves the position or power.

 

[Irenaeus]

A fascinating detail about the Milgram experiment, is that one of the few people that refused outright to administer any electricity is the same GI who was responsible for exposing the My Lai massacre.

It makes me wonder how rare really principled whistleblowers are.

 

[JuliaB4GSP]

Very few people are leaders and most people are content being told what to do, because they require direction in their life. People think that those who are respected and in power are there for a reason and can be fully trusted with the keys to the kingdom, but oftentimes that is not the case, as was the case with Hitler.

People like the easy way towards success and what easier way to that than doing what you're told and not asking questions? I've seen it at jobs all of the time. Management doesn't like those people that always ask questions and want to improve things. Management, oftentimes, and from my experiences, like people that do as they are told.

I think there's an equal element of people just being lazy and doing the minimum to get by day to day. If I just do what my boss tells me, I'll be left alone. The most common personality trait of management types I've seen is abdication of responsibility. That's the only way to move up in life, never be responsible for things that aren't going right, never push it off on another person if you can help it.

It fits well with the idea of a corporation as a person with rights and the LLC -- a non-human entity that can take the blame in place of the people that actually cause harm to other people, workers, the environment.

You submit to traffic laws because you a. think they're a good idea, b. don't want to be hassled by the police. Though you still go 5-10 over the speed limit and routinely roll through stop signs and hit yellow to red mid-intersection daily. Minimum compliance.

 

[JuliaB4GSP]

A fascinating detail about the Milgram experiment, is that one of the few people that refused outright to administer any electricity is the same GI who was responsible for exposing the My Lai massacre.

It makes me wonder how rare really principled whistleblowers are.

There are many myths surrounding the Milgram experiment(s), the My Lai soldier and the man who participated in the Princeton experiment were different individuals with the same/similar name. Some of the 'Milgram' experiments featured majorities who refused to shock people when a less biased/more honest subject selection process was introduced. Psychology has always had an honesty problem regarding notions of objectivity.

Most organizations only want whistle-blowers who reveal thieves within the organization, people who undermine profits or cause outright disturbance in the workplace. No organization wants a whistle-blower who reveals internally inconsistent narratives within the organization. Does the NSA exist to protect Americans or does the NSA exist to protect institutions of power and their interests? We know the answer, we just hope that we the people can get some of the fringe benefits of the NSA/CIA/Executive Branch gathering power unto itself.

 

[Blackened]

Very good point. I have seen people in command, that are there because better people have stepped out of the way for a person that wanted the authority. And almost all of us, whether we admit it or not, do want someone in charge rather than do everything for ourselves.

People like to believe that the person in charge knows exactly what to do, and while they are giving orders, or making decisions, their calm demeanor may belie the roiling uncertainties underneath.

I want confidence, not arrogance in a leader. I want someone who will step up, but not someone that craves the position or power.

I don't want a leader. if life has taught me anything it's that I can run shit just as good if not better than the next guy.

I do understand that primates work in male dominance hierarchies, but it shouldn't take a person long to realize this is simply left over evolutionary baggage and says nothing about their leadership abilities but more about a persons desire to follow an alpha male.

 

[Blackened]

There are many myths surrounding the Milgram experiment(s), the My Lai soldier and the man who participated in the Princeton experiment were different individuals with the same/similar name. Some of the 'Milgram' experiments featured majorities who refused to shock people when a less biased/more honest subject selection process was introduced. Psychology has always had an honesty problem regarding notions of objectivity.

Most organizations only want whistle-blowers who reveal thieves within the organization, people who undermine profits or cause outright disturbance in the workplace. No organization wants a whistle-blower who reveals internally inconsistent narratives within the organization. Does the NSA exist to protect Americans or does the NSA exist to protect institutions of power and their interests? We know the answer, we just hope that we the people can get some of the fringe benefits of the NSA/CIA/Executive Branch gathering power unto itself.

Nail on the head

 

[afrdzak]

You answered your own post with the Stanley Milgram experiments; which today cannot be replicated as it breaks ethical/moral boundaries for research.......

 

[IDL]

You answered your own post with the Stanley Milgram experiments; which today cannot be replicated as it breaks ethical/moral boundaries for research.......

I doubt that military institutions around the world have such moral constraints.

 

[afrdzak]

I doubt that military institutions around the world have such moral constraints.

I don't disagree. But I think they're doing it on "live" data as opposed to using the scientific method with controls and such.

 

[IDL]

A fascinating detail about the Milgram experiment, is that one of the few people that refused outright to administer any electricity is the same GI who was responsible for exposing the My Lai massacre.

It makes me wonder how rare really principled whistleblowers are.

I bet there are a lot of principled people who don't speak out because of the repercussions.

Control structures are filled with safeguards to discourage people from disobeying the hierarchy.

It often takes quite a lot of self sacrifice to peak out, and then of course you have to have an audience for it to really make an impact.