Why are Calf/bicep attacks illegal?

[GBS BJJ Soldier]

I was rolling with a really good bluebelt the other day, and I had him in my half guard and I decided to try out a new sub I learned from Mr.Bravo's Book Jiu Jitsu:Unleashed..the Kamikazee Calf Crusher (I think that is the name). Anyways, The blue belt said "ouch" and rolled over. I said "whats up bro", he didn't bitch or anything, but he informed me that the move is illegal in tournys. We continued to roll and have a good time.

Anyways I was just wondering why exactly these moves are illegal? I know they cause a lot of pain, but can they really harm the body such as neck cranks and heel hooks?


Thanks in advance

 

[Balto]

I don't think there is a really good reason for them to be illegal either.

They are in the category of "submissions people claim are very dangerous but really aren't that bad."

Other members of the category include wristlocks and straight kneebars. The moves do have the potential for injury, but so does any move we do. I don't think they are any more or less dangerous.

Heel hooks and neck cranks are the only ones I group a bit differently. Toe holds I'm on the fence about, but I generally think they ought to be allowed at most levels.

 

[jasond]

I've never heard of bicep and calf subs being illegal; or wrist locks for that matter.

The only things that were specifically covered in rules meetings I've been in were twisting leg locks of any kind, neck cranks, and small joint manipulation (fingers and toes). Depending on the tournament, I have seen times where all leg locks were illegal for my son's division - but other times where they were allowed straight leg locks.

 

[John O'Brien]

They are not illegal.. I've been caught a few times rolling with that kamikaze leglock from half-guard in training.. It hurts, but you can ride it out if you pretend you're immune to it and eventually they will just give it up..

 

[Sherdog_Mutt]

I've seen a guy's forearm break as a result of a bicep crusher. The idea of why they're outlawed is because, although painful, some guys are able to resist the pain better than others. These guys don't realize that a tremendous amount of force is being placed on the forearm/shin. Occasionally this results in broken bones, insurance claims and lawsuits.

Personally, I don't think that bicep and calf crushers are really that bad. Nonetheless, I see why some BJJ tournaments err on the side of caution and have them on the illegal moves list.

 

[Balto]

I've seen a guy's forearm break as a result of a bicep crusher. The idea of why they're outlawed is because, although painful, some guys are able to resist the pain better than others. These guys don't realize that a tremendous amount of force is being placed on the forearm/shin. Occasionally this results in broken bones, insurance claims and lawsuits.

Personally, I don't think that bicep and calf crushers are really that bad. Nonetheless, I see why some BJJ tournaments err on the side of caution and have them on the illegal moves list.

I've also seen people's arms break in tournaments due to armbars that they willfully chose not to tap from.

Should armbars be illegal too? They also fit the description of a tremendous amount of force on a joint. It leads to broken bones, and subsequent insurance claims and lawsuits.

 

[ihatemayonnaise]

From what I hear, bicep slicers and calf equivalents often don't hurt very bad until they are cranked to the point where it separates your joint suddenly. This causes lots of people to not tap to them, or newer students to not even notice they're in a submission hold until its too late.

I was taught if you tap to one it counts as a DQ loss for your opponent.

 

[Sambo234]

calf slicers are really, really painful

 

[ihatemayonnaise]

calf slicers are really, really painful

I'd believe it. Never been caught in one, but I have been bicep sliced and it didn't really hurt me. I still tapped when I realized what was happening, as this was shortly after I heard what they'll ultimately do.

 

[Sherdog_Mutt]

I've also seen people's arms break in tournaments due to armbars that they willfully chose not to tap from.

Should armbars be illegal too? They also fit the description of a tremendous amount of force on a joint. It leads to broken bones, and subsequent insurance claims and lawsuits.

I agree with you. I don't think that calf slicers or bicep crushers should be illegal.

Nonetheless, the logic behind the rule is that some guys don't feel pain (or feel little pain) up until the point where it's too late. I also think it's probably the unfamiliarity factor that causes BJJ tourneys to outlaw these moves. Many BJJ guys don't train this move or how to defend it and are unfamiliar with the dangers posed by the move. Hell, I bet that the majority of the people reading this thread have no idea how much force is placed on the forearm/shin bone by these moves. I know that up until I saw that guy get his forearm broken, I had thought that a bicep crusher was strictly a pain-compliance submission which posed no risk of major injury. As such, you cannot lump these moves together with armbars. Armbars, on the other hand, and the risks associated with not tapping to one are readily familiar to everybody so anyone not tapping to one is voluntarily assuming the risk of injury.

 

[Ballz_Onya_Chin]

I was told at a tourney that they Bicep/calf crushers are illegal because one guy wouldn't tap to a bicep cutter and it stayed on to long and caused serious damage. Like his arm had to be amputated or something because he didn't go to the hospital afterwards and the permanent damage made his arm start rotting...

Don't know if this is true, or if I was fed a load of bullshit. Sounds like bullshit but it was from the guy running the tourney...

 

[Gavin LeFever]

They are not illegal.. I've been caught a few times rolling with that kamikaze leglock from half-guard in training.. It hurts, but you can ride it out if you pretend you're immune to it and eventually they will just give it up..

if you're doing this and people are letting you go, it's because they don't want to hurt you in training and let go because you're too thickheaded to tap. lol.

compression locks hurt the muscle which is just pain, but if you continue to work the submission, you can dislocate or separate the joint.

plus, if you make the calf crusher and you pull on the top of their foot (instead of their shin), you'll break the ligaments in the foot before their knee goes.

 

[Zankou]

Wristlocks and bicep crushers are definitely dangerous.

I have no idea about calf slicers. They are horribly painful, but I've never heard anyone getting hurt by one, and you usually will tap pretty fast.

Kneebars are actually quite safe IMHO. The amount of force needed to damage the knee with a straight kneebar is very high, and it hurts like hell so it's not like you wouldn't know it. To me, it is safer than the armbar even (though the knee is more valuable than the elbow).

Heelhooks and neck cranks = horrible.

 

[masada555]

From what I hear, bicep slicers and calf equivalents often don't hurt very bad until they are cranked to the point where it separates your joint suddenly. This causes lots of people to not tap to them, or newer students to not even notice they're in a submission hold until its too late.

Untrue.

When you apply a bicep slicer, the pain happens instantly. Prolly faster than any other sub.

They are illegal -- in some gi tournaments and only for certain belt levels -- because a lot of people think that slicers can't cause any physical damage (other than bruising), so they try to tough out the pain. Then they get they arm broke.

 

[Flibb]

Illegal for white belts.

 

[Flounder]

Untrue.

They are illegal -- in some gi tournaments and only for certain belt levels -- because a lot of people think that slicers can't cause any physical damage (other than bruising), so they try to tough out the pain. Then they get they arm broke.

I think this is probably more true then anything. Just like it goes around that an achiles lock is just a pain hold, and doesn't cause damage. My training partner had me in a vicious bicep slicer, and while it was quite painful, I did feel like I could ride the pain out. Fortunately, I also realized he was putting alot of pressure on my forearm, and I just envisioned it snapping, so I tapped.

 

[Gsoares2***]

Because people like you dont know why they are illegal

Pull the move crazy fast - and injure someone for the rest of their life - which overall brings down the quality of the school and the sport.

It causes to many injuries - its mostly a pain move.. it hurts but you can resist it. Resist it to long and you severely cut the muscles and could cripple a person for a very long time.

 

[Big Eck]

We are taught them and train them in my gym all the time. I wasn't aware that they were illegal.

 

[juanlawnmower]

We use "bicep slicer" as a set up for an armbar.

 

[Sambo234]

Wristlocks and bicep crushers are definitely dangerous.

I have no idea about calf slicers. They are horribly painful, but I've never heard anyone getting hurt by one, and you usually will tap pretty fast.

Kneebars are actually quite safe IMHO. The amount of force needed to damage the knee with a straight kneebar is very high, and it hurts like hell so it's not like you wouldn't know it. To me, it is safer than the armbar even (though the knee is more valuable than the elbow).

Heelhooks and neck cranks = horrible.

it might be coincidence... but were were drilling calf slicers about 8 months ago and my partner was a lot larger and much stronger than me, he expanded my knee joint a lot and now i've had some re occuring knee injuries on that knee which consists of my knee popping or dislocating, and me having to straighten it out to get back into place. had an MRI and xray done, said i'm healthy, but my knee just popped for the past two days and it's sore as hell.

now it could be coincidence but i'm pretty sure the calf slicer is what fucked up my leg... being as it popped on the same day we were drilling when i had no prior problems.

hooray for permanent ligament and tendon damage!