When charles retires, who will use high level guard work in high level MMA?

fortheo

fortheo

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It seems like in high level MMA (ranked fighters), Charles is the only guy with a good, respectful guard who uses it often. Will we see the death of high level guards in high level MMA when Charles retires?
 
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fortheo said:
It seems like in high level MMA (ranked fighters), Charles is the only guy with a good respectful guard who uses it often. Will we see the death of high level guards in high level MMA when Charles retires?
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The only other highly ranked guy who uses an aggressive offensive guard is probably Royval. And his bjj isn't at Charles level so...
 
There a few guys who have tricky guards, but the guard game has effectively been weeded out. At the highest level of the sport, being on your back is a losing proposition, so the focus is getting up as quickly as possible (sometimes that means stalling the action to force a referee standup).

Even Charles, who arguably has the most dangerous guard in the game, has lost a bunch of fights from his back--both getting finished and losing decisions.
 
Guard-work is a worse-case-scenario these days

The energy is better spent trying to get off the mats

Not to mention the average level of submission defense these days is also higher

But Charles sure does have a deadly spider-web of a guard and a submission is basically a KO punch as the fight ends instantly
 
xentreos said:
I'll die on the hill that BJJ offense in MMA has gotten worse rather than defenses getting infinitely better.
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A lot of people say BJJ defense has just improved to a level where guard is useless. Personally, I think it's more so that high level guard is a lost art in MMA. Mostly because It's much easier to learn a few ways to wrestle back up while defending responsibly than it is to develop a high level guard.

TriangleMonkey said:
Guard-work is a worse-case-scenario these days

The energy is better spent trying to get off the mats

Not to mention the average level of submission defense these days is also higher

But Charles sure does have a deadly spider-web of a guard and a submission is basically a KO punch as the fight ends instantly
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I don't think charles losing a few times from guard is evidence that guard work is a flawed approach in MMA. Fighters lose while forcing their wrestling all the damn time, yet nobody holds that against wrestling lol. I think guard has fallen out of favor for a couple reasons:

  1. it's easier/quicker to learn how to wrestle up defensively than it is it to develop a high level guard
  2. MMA judging, incorrectly or not, seems to favor the guy on top when scoring.

Also, in regards to your comment about it being better to invest your energy in getting off the mats, charles has used his guard to threaten both Dariush and Islam enough to create space to get back to his feet. Those are two of the highest level grapplers in the sport, and charles got up from under them with guard work. Guard work can be a way to facilitate getting off the mats.
 
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fortheo said:
A lot of people say BJJ defense has just improved to a level where guard is useless. Personally, I think it's more so that high level guard is a lost art in MMA. Mostly because It's much easier to learn a few ways to wrestle back up while defending responsibly than it is to develop a high level guard.



I don't think charles losing a few times from guard is evidence that guard work is a flawed approach in MMA. Fighters lose while forcing their wrestling all the damn time, yet nobody holds that against wrestling lol. I think guard has fallen out of favor for a couple reasons:

  1. it's easier to learn how to wrestle up defensively than it is it to develop a high level guard
  2. MMA judging, wrong or not, seems to favor the guy on top when scoring.
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Well, major gyms that train mma fighters have chopped-up and stream-lined jiu-jitsu for them. Teach them the defenses to the high-percentile moves, and how to apply the most effective simple ones

Yes, the judges have a huge part with the shift

And yes, easier to learn to “wrestle up” than spend hours/days/weeks learning all the intricacies of jiu-jitsu, which many positions leave you vulnerable to get punched/smashed
 
fortheo said:
A lot of people say BJJ defense has just improved to a level where guard is useless. Personally, I think it's more so that high level guard is a lost art in MMA. Mostly because It's much easier to learn a few ways to wrestle back up while defending responsibly than it is to develop a high level guard.



I don't think charles losing a few times from guard is evidence that guard work is a flawed approach in MMA. Fighters lose while forcing their wrestling all the damn time, yet nobody holds that against wrestling lol. I think guard has fallen out of favor for a couple reasons:

  1. it's easier to learn how to wrestle up defensively than it is it to develop a high level guard
  2. MMA judging, wrong or not, seems to favor the guy on top when scoring.

Also, in regards to your comment about it being better to invest your energy in getting off the mats, charles has used his guard to threaten both Dariush and Islam enough to create space to get back to his feet. Those are two of the highest level grapplers in the sport, and charles got up from under them with guard work.
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I also think rounds are a major factor. In a ten minute round you might see someone in the guard looking for something longer than in a five minute round. In a fiver, you may lose that round if you are in the guard due to sucky judging who do not know what they are watching.
 
TriangleMonkey said:
Well, major gyms that train mma fighters have chopped-up and stream-lined jiu-jitsu for them. Teach them the defenses to the high-percentile moves, and how to apply the most effective simple ones

Yes, the judges have a huge part with the shift

And yes, easier to learn to “wrestle up” than spend hours/days/weeks learning all the intricacies of jiu-jitsu, which many positions leave you vulnerable to get punched/smashed
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Every position has it's vulnerabilities though. I think it's mostly just because there's so many damn skills in MMA that a fighter needs to learn, so it's just more time efficient to learn how to wrestle up better. I don't think that means high level guards are pointless though or even necessarily inferior approach.. I know you didn't say they're pointless by the way, I'm just rambling.

At some point, having the common platitude of "guard being worst case scenario" becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, because people end up believing this and neglecting training guard work, and then when they find themselves on their back and can't wrestle up, they are indeed fucked after having treated guard work like some kind of extra credit in the gym.
 
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fortheo said:
MMA judging, incorrectly or not, seems to favor the guy on top when scoring.
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This is basically the whole thread.

Most fights are 3 5-minute rounds. BJJ attacks take time, especially against a well rounded opponent. Unless you have an absolute murderous guard game and/or your opponent is a jabroni on the ground, its too much risk giving up a round playing guard.

IMO the narrative that everyone got better at basic defense is true, considering the time and scoring constraints. If we had 10 minute rounds, this might look different.

Also want to add to that, Charles is legit one of a kind. He bets on himself at all costs, anywhere the fight goes.
 
I remember being impressed by Nascimento's guard play against Tagir, even in a questionably losing effort. However, his last performance against Filho -- though he had moments and ultimately pulled out the W -- was a tad uninspired.
 
I think Diego Lopes has a quite dangerous guard and of course his jiujitsu overall is very good and entertaining to watch.

But it’s mostly the rule set or better said how the fights are scored, what hinders developing a great guard game. There are lots of examples where control time was scored for the fighter sitting inside a guard and just defending attacks. Where it actually should have been control time for the guard player who is controlling the fight at that moment. In mma it is basically impossible to point fight from guard. No matter how passive or defensive the guy on top is, he almost always gets the round.
 
Conan the K-9 said:
I think Diego Lopes has a quite dangerous guard and of course his jiujitsu overall is very good and entertaining to watch.

But it’s mostly the rule set or better said how the fights are scored, what hinders developing a great guard game. There are lots of examples where control time was scored for the fighter sitting inside a guard and just defending attacks. Where it actually should have been control time for the guard player who is controlling the fight at that moment. In mma it is basically impossible to point fight from guard. No matter how passive or defensive the guy on top is, he almost always gets the round.
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Condit vs Hendricks comes to mind. Condit was active on his back while Hendricks just chilled in guard. But Hendricks won the rounds
 
Safton said:
I remember being impressed by Nascimento's guard play against Tagir, even in a questionably losing effort. However, his last performance against Filho -- though he had moments and ultimately pulled out the W -- was a tad uninspired.
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Riddled with injuries, layoff and Filho is a good BJJ guy himself as evidenced by his outclassing of Carpenter.

Judging doesn't lend itself to guard players even if it's better now than it used to be, but more importantly someone like Charles is just a grappling savant.

Nowadays I feel that guys with that sort of talent would just stick to grappling comps instead of dedicating themselves to MMA. There's more opportunities for them to earn a good living in BJJ now compared to before, and they won't have to deal with getting their shit rocked.
 
fortheo said:
Every position has it's vulnerabilities though. I think it's mostly just because there's so many damn skills in MMA that a fighter needs to learn, so it's just more time efficient to learn how to wrestle up better. I don't think that means high level guards are pointless though or even necessarily inferior approach.. I know you didn't say they're pointless by the way, I'm just rambling.

At some point, having the common platitude of "guard being worst case scenario" becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, because people end up believing this and neglecting training guard work, and then when they find themselves on their back and can't wrestle up, they are indeed fucked after having treated guard work like some kind of extra credit in the gym.
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Gamrot tried to wrestle up and got his back taken twice and then choked. I don't think lying on your back hunting subs is the best tactic but a wrestling heavy style had its flaws too.
 
Thesnake101 said:
Riddled with injuries, layoff and Filho is a good BJJ guy himself as evidenced by his outclassing of Carpenter.
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I don't disagree, but I was never really sold on Carpenter. The injuries and layoff are part of the issue IRT Nascimento.
 
Taking a 30,000 foot view I'm on the side that believes submission defense has improved. I know there is an opposite view point, but I believe the reason you are seeing less and less BJJ offense mounted during a fight is due to what we don't see, the practice room. BJJ guys are learning inside the practice room that subs are getting very hard to come by and that being on your back is largely a losing proposition in MMA. There will always be exceptions.
 
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