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I see this term "BJJ McDojo" thrown around a lot on the Internets. In your opinion, what are signs/symptoms that one would look for to determine a BJJ McDojo from a non BJJ McDojo?
What are the traits of a BJJ McDojo?
- Thread starter JustSomeGuy
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Ah, I assumed McDojo was a negative term based on the skill level of the school as a whole. Didn't realize if someone has more than one school, they fall into the category.
So any Gracie, Machado, Alliance, ATOS, etc. school would be a McDojo?
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I personally don't think so and most would disagree with my definition anyway. I think McDojo just means franchising. I don't like it, but I understand how it's what some people would want.
But lets look at the name's you listed.
Gracie: Don't even know what that means. Only Gracie Barra has a set structure. Ralph, Humaita, Renzo, and the dozens of others do their own thing.
Machado: All the brothers have wildly different systems, and even guys like Carlos have students who don't even use the BJJ belt system, so that doesn't count.
Alliance: Have heard nothing about them following a set guideline. Cobrinha, Jacare, Fabio Gurgel, and Marcelo Garcia seem nothing alike.
Atos: Andre Galvao and the Mendes Bros, are very different in terms of gym culture.
So yeah, I think its deeper than just naming a list of schools. Anyhow, I think you can be a McDojo and be a very good school. In my head it just means you have black belt clubs for kids, cater to soccer moms, and have scheduled fees for stripe testing.
Bad jiu jitsu is something else entirely.
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Calibur pretty much nailed what I was thinking with his description.
To me, a McDojo is something that charges outrageous prices for something that is clearly substandard.
Example- You can't regain guard? No problem, here's a blue belt! 500 dollar testing fee.
A bjj gym can clearly charge a lot of money, but as long as they are providing you with good instruction, that isn't a mcdojo in my opinion.
On the topic of organizations like the ones you mentioned, I feel those aren't Mcdojos as they are generally providing good instruction all across the board and they make money.
Something like ATA for taekwondo on the other hand, has substandard instruction all across the board, with very few exceptions, and they have some very shady practices, while charging outrageous prices for glorified babysitting in my opinion.
To me, a McDojo is something that charges outrageous prices for something that is clearly substandard.
Example- You can't regain guard? No problem, here's a blue belt! 500 dollar testing fee.
A bjj gym can clearly charge a lot of money, but as long as they are providing you with good instruction, that isn't a mcdojo in my opinion.
On the topic of organizations like the ones you mentioned, I feel those aren't Mcdojos as they are generally providing good instruction all across the board and they make money.
Something like ATA for taekwondo on the other hand, has substandard instruction all across the board, with very few exceptions, and they have some very shady practices, while charging outrageous prices for glorified babysitting in my opinion.
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- High pressure sales tactics
- Pressure to sign long-term contracts with stiff penalties for early termination
- Disallowing the use of gear and uniforms not bought at or through the school
- Surprise mandatory fees (We have a guest instructor today so there's a mandatory fee we'll collect at the end of class. If you don't want to pay, please step off the mats. / Effective immediately, your old patches are no good and you must upgrade to our new patches in order to continue training.)
- Putting too much emphasis on sales and profit / not enough emphasis on quality of instruction, facilities, experience (etc.)
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That's bullshido. McDojo is about business. Bullshido is about inflating one's credentials, teaching crap techniques, making false or unprovable claims, etc.
A mcdojo is not necessarily engaged in bullshido. Bullshido does not happen exclusively at mcdojos. The worst case scenario is when you have both at once.
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Mcdojo relates to the business aspects of how a school is run.
A chain of schools is not necessarily mcdojo. It's only if their business practices involve some of characteristics that I've mentioned already that they are considered mcdojos.
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Are you looking to validate the GB you chose and the instructor you are under? or are you wanting to know more about how he used to have kids as brown and black belts?
A McDojo is run using the modern franchise model, i.e. like McDonald's.
The idea is that the owner makes a significant capital investment (like a couple hundred thousand dollars) to start a franchise, and the parent company provides training and a proven turnkey model to make it successful.
I think the only thing in BJJ that really qualifies is Gracie Barra. Other than that, nothing else operates that way on a big enough scale.
The idea is that the owner makes a significant capital investment (like a couple hundred thousand dollars) to start a franchise, and the parent company provides training and a proven turnkey model to make it successful.
I think the only thing in BJJ that really qualifies is Gracie Barra. Other than that, nothing else operates that way on a big enough scale.
The basic promise of the franchise model is that to succeed as a franchise owner, you only need two things:
1. The appropriate amount of seed money.
2. A good work ethic.
All of the other stuff, the franchise company is willing to teach you as part of their fee. So if you don't know any BJJ at all, they will teach you how to hire an instructor who does. They will teach you how to advertise, how to structure a curriculum, how much to charge, etc. etc. etc.
Basically show up with money and a good work ethic, and let us take care of the rest. No actual BJJ experience required. That's a McDojo.
1. The appropriate amount of seed money.
2. A good work ethic.
All of the other stuff, the franchise company is willing to teach you as part of their fee. So if you don't know any BJJ at all, they will teach you how to hire an instructor who does. They will teach you how to advertise, how to structure a curriculum, how much to charge, etc. etc. etc.
Basically show up with money and a good work ethic, and let us take care of the rest. No actual BJJ experience required. That's a McDojo.
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There are a lot of different opinions here already. I had a feeling that it was a pretty nebulous term. I'm interested to hear what others have to say as well.
lol, no. It's a bummer to see there is so much animosity between these two schools that it spills over here. I remember when Danny and Herman were both training at O's place and everyone was friendly. I guess times change.
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Lol there is a lot you don't (and probably) won't ever know. I'm not mad at ya homie. HT isn't a bad guy, he has a legit black belt. Don't worry about it being a mcdojo just go train.
I'll leave the rest of my opinion out of it. But what you are looking for out of bjj you can get there.
I'll leave the rest of my opinion out of it. But what you are looking for out of bjj you can get there.
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I didn't say it was and that wasn't the point of this thread.
I'm still curious to hear what others consider a McDojo to be.
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You can add shit like guaranteed promotions after a set time too.
I think TLI qualified before it blew up. I'm sure Limpy is still pushing the model, looking for more marks, uh gym owners, to join the cult.
Nah Lloyd didn't franchise like that. The official TLI schools that used the name seemed to be a normal model just like every other affiliation.
The MMA Millionaires shit involved a lot of turnkey stuff like that, but that was a scammy pyramid consulting model rather than a franchise one.
The point of a franchise model is to get you running a successful school, which kicks up profits to the parent company. There's actually a formal business arrangement where the financial success of the parent is directly tied to the financial success of its franchises.
The point of the pyramid consulting scam model is to get you to keep buying into higher and higher levels of the organization. There's no business arrangement beyond the membership fee itself. All the schools could do horribly, but if you can just manage to convince them that if they just upgrade to Ultimate Master Super Platinum Titanium Level instead, the parent company still does great.
Franchising is a pretty legitimate business model. I don't think it is well suited to the martial arts, but at least it's not an outright scam if done right. It's hard to conceive of the pyramid consulting model as anything but a scam. When the main point of selling one level of membership is just to hype up how awesome the next, more exclusive, more expensive level of membership is, that's pretty much a scam by definition.
One sign of the franchise model is a school where the actual owner has little to no involvement in BJJ. The owner just hires instructors to teach for him.
This is different than the instructors holding ownership and then hiring an office manager to work the business end. That is not usually a franchise.
What RVCA has with AOJ is kind of close to a franchise, but it is a bit different because RVCA is not only the parent company but also the investor I believe. If RVCA were recruiting other investors in order to create a chain of AOJs taught by hired instructors, then that would be a true franchise model.
GB does seem to accept outside investors, which is why I consider them to follow the model.
This is different than the instructors holding ownership and then hiring an office manager to work the business end. That is not usually a franchise.
What RVCA has with AOJ is kind of close to a franchise, but it is a bit different because RVCA is not only the parent company but also the investor I believe. If RVCA were recruiting other investors in order to create a chain of AOJs taught by hired instructors, then that would be a true franchise model.
GB does seem to accept outside investors, which is why I consider them to follow the model.
