Traditional Karate and Reality Street Fighting

[AshiharaFan]

Sherbros I want to ask you how do you think a person who practices a traditional Karate style like Shotokan or Shito-Ryu or perhaps Tang Soo Do or Okinawan Kempo can practice their traditional Karate style while still learning to adapt themselves to a full contact fighting situation?

There are people who practice a traditional Karate style for many reasons and I am sure one of those reasons is the relative safety that comes with practicing in that manner compared to, say, Muay Thai or Boxing or even Kyokushin for that matter. Although highly unrealistic point fighting is certainly safer than full contact fighting especially the variations of full contact fighting that allow punches to the head.

One idea that I have read here in an old thread is to practice your traditional Karate style (point fighting and all) and engage in a few full contact sparring sessions every once in a while to stay somewhat grounded in realism. This advice was offered for those who are concerned about preserving their brain cells and not being "punch drunk" as they get older. The trade off with traditional and point style training/sparring is that while it is less dangerous it is also less realistic. One can engage in regular full contact sparring such as done Boxing, Kudo, MMA and Muay Thai which comes with its own trade off. That trade off is that it is more dangerous but it is also more realistic.

Then there is the advice of the "in between" training which is Bare Knuckle/Knockdown Karate. In this way of training you have regular Kumite in which you preserve your brain health but still get used to full contact fighting and the things that come with it such as taking full force blows to the body, fighting someone who is trying to hurt you, dealing with adrenaline while under pressure and the intent of knocking someone out while trying to prevent getting knocked out yourself.

So what do you guys think? What are some other ways that a traditional Karate-ka can prepare himself for a realistic street fight while practicing an art that offers him a safe way to train? Or are people stuck in a situation in which they must choose between safety and realism?

 

[Tayski]

Mawashi uke also doesn't originate in jujitsu - that breaking a wrist hold application may be from jujitsu. Mawashi uke as practised in karate is actually for parring punches - and is originally from styles based around Fujian in China. In Uechi ryu it comes directly from pangainoon - it's a circular parry designed to parry/grap the attacking hand & strike with the free hand.

Breaking a hold with that technique seems much more realistic and functional than blocking punches, even if that's what it was originally designed for.

They have no real term application - what is the benefit of doing them? Take the Pinan katas - what's the point for example in repeating gedan blocks/gyakus - after you already know what they are & what they do - muscle memory? Don't we get that from kumite & kihon & yasuku kumite partner drills...

Pinan katas are a great way for beginners to put together a few basic techniques with movement, teaching them coordination, balance, timing while also training muscle memory and fitness.
In every martial art there are things you learn that might be less useful than others, it doesn't mean that it should necessarily be skipped and forgotten. We could argue that the Ram Muay has no self defence application either, it's still a traditional part of Muay Thai.

There is a disconnect with kata in Kyokushin. Karateka are attempting to fill that void with bunkai. But bunkai if you do the reading up on it's history - is littered with supposed "authenticity" & people like Ian Abernathy are left to come up with solutions - I admire him in all honesty - he's doing a great service to Karateka worldwide but we aren't even sure if it's correct - it's his take on it because no-one really seems to know - the truth of the matter is that very few actually knew the bunkai & most of them have passed on with their knowledge.
I'd add as well that I've seen footage of shodans, nidans, sandans, yodans & even godans (as well as people higher up) in Kyokushin - do Sanchin wrong

There is not just one real bunkai and everything else is wrong, it is not restricted and the only limit is what really works in reality.
There are different explanations to techniques and different uses. What we need to be careful with is that those are practical and would actually work in today's world. The problem with bunkai is that a lot of people have come up with really silly applications for techniques that don't make sense in reality. That's particularly true in arts like Shotokan.
Thankfully there is also some great bunkai out there, especially in arts like Kyokushin.
In my opinion the quality of kata depends immensely on the instructor, and you do have cases of instructors in Kyokushin who focus so much on the Knockdown aspect (sport aspect) that kata is under-trained and that leaves you with practitioners who perform terrible kata and cannot explain what the techniques can be used for. This is probably what you have witnessed.
I have had the chance to train in different types of Kyokushin dojos. Some had a huge focus on kata, performing it correctly, and learning and drilling bunkai, while others only bothered with kata when gradings were approaching and they just wanted to get it out of the way quickly without spending much time on it.

 

[Joe Hallenbeck]

Forget about Kihon and Kata.
99% in this shit is useless crap. Thats sad reality, don't over intelectualize it.

Be fit, strong, agile and metally tough.

PS. I like Karate.

 

[panamaican]

It's fairly straightforward. Know your techniques and train them with live, non-compliant partners.

I believe that the kihon, kata, kumite model makes for a proper training regimen...so long as it's the same techniques being trained in all three and that the kumite is about practical application in sparring. How many times have we seen kihon that is repetitive movement in a way that you never see in kata. or kumite. No one is ever going to do 10 gedan barai's back to back in a real conflict. And kata movements almost never flow from the position of facing a guy with both hands already up in guard bouncing in and out.


Although, I'd probably change the order to kata, kihon, kumite.

You start with a kata. Walk through it so that you understand the techniques, not just performing the movements. Then you break out the individual techniques and practice the movements kihon style. Then you grab a partner and practice against a live opponent so you can feel the difference between the physical movement and when it involves the actual weight and distance and response of a human body. Probably something light and slow.

Then you spar with the intent of trying to implement the movements against a mobile non-compliant partner.

Wash, rinse, repeat for as along as it takes to become natural with the movements and natural with recognizing the proper time to implement them. I'm probably in the minority on this board for still thinking kata has value but, in my experience, the flow and repetition of kata translates to real life in a way that kihon doesn't.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Forget about Kihon and Kata.
99% in this shit is useless crap. Thats sad reality, don't over intelectualize it.

Be fit, strong, agile and metally tough.

PS. I like Karate.

I think whether or not 99% of Kihon being useless would depend on the Style and the Training Approach.

I would say that the Kihon of Daido Juku and the way they normally train is quite useful. Fast forward to 10:30 of the video to see what I mean.

[YT]7tTin2FBDAs[/YT]

But I find myself in full agreement with the rest of your post; Be fit, strong, agile and mentally tough (and I would say physically tough as well).

Btw, I too like Karate but I have a preference for the No BS approaches of Karate.

 

[Tayski]

I think there are quite a few techniques in Kihon that are useless and would not work in a real fight, Koken being one of those techniques. I have never witnessed, heard of or used this technique in a real fight. Not even in a full contact competition let alone a real fight where the winner goes home and the loser goes to the morgue or at best the hospital.

As mentioned previously, there are a lot of techniques in martial arts which are not what you would tend to use in a real fight. You just have to select what really works for you. In Kyokushin you also learn a lot of different kicks in kihon, a lot of jodan kicks and jumping kicks that you would not use in a real fight.
If what you're after is what works in a real fight and avoid anything traditional, you might as well not bother researching/training traditional karate, Kyokushin Karate, or Ashihara Karate and instead just do something like boxing, mma or krav maga.

I'm sorry sir but I have to look at this as basic Dogma; a party line repeated for many years by many people that it is now accepted by many people as gospel but without any of the criteria I asked about in my reply to Azam proving that the inventors of today's kata had anything to do with Bunkai. In other words, just because some people repeat it does not make it true. And it is certainly not FACT for if it were then this conversation that we are having now (the conversation of whether Bunkai is a legit practice left behind the creators of today's kata) would not take place over and over (which it does and has for many years).

The arguments for and against Bunkai have existed for ages which leads me to believe that there was/is nothing etched in stone left behind by the Karate Masters who made the kata that categorically teaches, promotes or mandates Bunkai. If there were then I repeat that we would not be having this same ages old conversation as there would be nothing for the Bunkai naysayers to argue about.

Let's look at it this way, we have 3 options:

-option1: train a martial art that has kata, and just learn the bear minimum of kata that you're required to learn without spending any time on it or even trying to understand it. That's what a lot of traditional karate dojos do (I come from Shotokan originally and witnessed that).

-option2: train a martial art that has kata, but instead of doing the bear minimum and not giving it much attention, trying to understand it and how you could use it and make it beneficial for you. This is my case.
Personally I don't really care if the bunkai I'm being taught is the original bunkai and applications that the original masters designed the techniques for or not. What I care about is that the bunkai I am being taught makes sense (as in I can see how that technique could be use for a particular application) and most importantly that it could be used in a real fight / self defence situation. Then I just drill it to make it work and be able to use it instinctively.
As Azam mentioned we have very little track record of what the bunkai was like ages ago when the styles of karate and their katas were created. And even if we did, a lot of it most probably would not fit today's world and requirements for effectiveness. Here we would be having another argument about the 'bunkai neysayers' who would say it was effective back in the day but is not relevant to today's world.

-option3: train a martial art with no kata (this seems to be what you want)

So far you are the first and only person I have ever witnessed make this claim. But again, just because the claim and the statement is made does not make it true. I can only ask you for Proof of what you are stating. Books, documentation written by Sosai Oyama, video footage of him practicing and teaching it, etc.

I've heard it from people who have trained under Sosai from the very start and are very important Kyokushin figures today.
I have trained under Hanshi Steve Arneil for a bit, and he's said several times how important kata and bunkai was for Sosai, and they trained it a lot when he was in Japan training under him.
Shihan Howard Collins has also mentioned it before.
Hearing those 2 tell us about Oyama training it with them is enough proof for me. It's your choice not to believe it.
Also, from an interview of Hanshi talking about Oyama: "Stevu, he would say - he couldn’t say Steven, Stevu half of your life you learn kata, the other half you learn to understand what you are doing!"

I have some of Sosai's books but haven't even opened them yet so I can't tell you if it's also present in them or not. (maybe Azam knows?)

So you are agreeing with me without even realizing it that most (as you put it) kihon that are drilled are absolutely useless; again the infamous Koken (chicken's beak fist). This is actually in contradiction to what you said in the opening statement of your post

I don't believe most kihon techniques are useless like you think they are.
What I'm saying is that some of them might be more relevant for real fighting and real self defence application than others. It's also a lot about the individual, their physique, and how comfortable they are with each technique.

I agree which is why I think it would be best to get your opponent to either bend over or get him onto one or both of his knees and THEN kick him in his face/head. But because the leg is like a good 70% stronger than the arm I do think kicking a person in the face and head is an ideal goal.

In a real fight you won't have time to think about how to get your opponent to bend over or on his knees. Unless you seriously drill techniques for that purpose it most probably won't happen the way you want.
Kicking someone in the face/head is great but very difficult to pull in a real life situation, and that's ignoring the fact that you might not be wearing the right trousers to kick high enough, and there's also a big risk of losing balance, slipping or getting taken down.

I hope you understand that you cannot express this opinion of yours as fact. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts. A Fact is something that cannot be disproved and no argument exists against it. So again, if Bunkai was a categorical fact this "To Bunkai or Not To Bunkai" conversation would have ended ages ago or never even been born at all in the first place.

And I hope you understand the difference between an opinion and a fact.
What I am telling you is that FOR ME kata makes much more sense when you're able to understand the meaning of the techniques and what they could be used for, and then drill them.
This is not a fact, just a personal preference. If you prefer doing kata without looking for how it could be used, that's your choice.

This is a moot point because I train in a Martial Art where I always have partners available to me and I train at a place that has the equipment needed. I know of no Martial Art that is a solo practiced art. No matter which art you practice, you need a partner in order to make proper progress. So this is a moot point since I do not strictly solo train anyway. And there is nothing that says that I or anyone else MUST practice something such as Sanchin Kata alone with the purpose of developing the goals of the exercise done at my gym.

You missed the point completely here and went off rails.
It's not about training a martial art only by yourself or that martial arts can be 'solo practised'. My point was that kata can be a tool to train if you're alone without equipment. It doesn't mean that training kata by yourself is enough and that you don't need partner work, and it also doesn't mean that kata is a necessity and that you can't do without it.
To quote Gary Chamberlain, branch chief of Enshin UK when he was asked in an interview if he thinks kata is useful and essential: "I think if the traditional kata are taught properly and explained realistically they may be useful. Essential, though? No!".
I also share this opinion.

You're so anti kihon and kata and seem to like turning up to a gym with training partners and equipment, it sounds to me that boxing, kickboxing, or MMA would be a better fit for you.

 

[Joe Hallenbeck]

I think whether or not 99% of Kihon being useless would depend on the Style and the Training Approach.

I would say that the Kihon of Daido Juku and the way they normally train is quite useful. Fast forward to 10:30 of the video to see what I mean.

[YT]7tTin2FBDAs[/YT]

But I find myself in full agreement with the rest of your post; Be fit, strong, agile and mentally tough (and I would say physically tough as well).

Btw, I too like Karate but I have a preference for the No BS approaches of Karate.

Heah, I know Kudo, but their kihon is not your typical Karate kihon.

I ment "classical" Karate Kihon and Kata, horse stance, zuki etc.

 

[Tayski]

And as far as Bunkai is concerned with finding techniques that will and will not work in a real fight I have a better way to find out than by doing Kata Bunkai and that is to put on my sparring gear and actually FIGHT. In addition to that I am all for Geoff Thompson's "Animal Day" sessions which I would engage in over Bunkai practice anytime. To me this is more pragmatic and I think the protective gear worn by Kudo stylists is perfect for doing this.

Sparring with your sparring gear on will not teach you new techniques, only let you test the techniques you already know.
In any case, it is your choice to choose what you believe is important for you and what you don't want to include as part of your training.

Your argument that bunkai is not necessary can be used for many other things. I could say for example that rope skipping is not necessary and that there are other ways for me to work my cardio with roadwork, sprinting and swimming instead.
Some people also believe weights should be an important part of a fighter's training, while some don't believe weights are necessary for a fighter.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Heah, I know Kudo, but their kihon is not your typical Karate kihon.

I ment "classical" Karate Kihon and Kata, horse stance, zuki etc.

Yes, I agree. That stuff (imo) is a waste of time. If a person does those things for the artistry then so be it. But it would be a problem if they think that stuff somehow translates into modern street warfare.

Unfortunately for the people who feel the need for that desired level of safety in their Karate practice and thus practice in the traditional (and most likely non-contact) manner, they have no choice BUT to practice those things whether they like it or not.

I really hadn't thought too much of these things until a buddy of mine brought this up in a conversation we were having the other day.

 

[Azam]

Breaking a hold with that technique seems much more realistic and functional than blocking punches, even if that's what it was originally designed for.

That is the original application of mawashi uke in karate. Uechi ryu unlike Goju/Shotokan didn't undergo "japanification" nor was it changed or influenced - the kata/techniques etc are as they were originally taught by Kanbun Uechi the founder. The above is a basic demonstration of it.

There are other applications as well - most involve taking to the inside or outside, while parrying & attacking with the free hand. In nearly all cases it's used as a counter - even in the above footage you'd use it to parry & counter - even though Kiyohide is just showing how you'd basically do it - ignoring countering but in the above you'd use it to parry your opponent's punch & counter.

Pinan katas are a great way for beginners to put together a few basic techniques with movement, teaching them coordination, balance, timing while also training muscle memory and fitness.
In every martial art there are things you learn that might be less useful than others, it doesn't mean that it should necessarily be skipped and forgotten. We could argue that the Ram Muay has no self defence application either, it's still a traditional part of Muay Thai.

You'd have a point if we moved in kumite like we do in the pinan katas but we don't. Coordination/balance you get from kihon and movement/timing/muscle memory you get from kumite. There is a big disconnect with kata and it's because no-one knows why we bother doing them really - outside of tradition.

I mean part of it is already covered in the taikyoku sono ichi/ni katas - gedan/gyaku tsukis - your taught from the first kata - what's the point in repeating it again & again in Pinan?

I'm not saying we should forget it entirely but what is the point in practicing pinan katas again & again? So you don't forget - I don't think anyone who practises kumite will forget how to throw a gyaku tsuki or how to use gedan barai.

No-one can really give a definitive answer why we should do it outside of muscle memory, balance, coordination etc etc all of which we get from Kihon & kumite - imho these also do a better job at it.

Yes but the Ram Muay isn't trained nor is it a significant part in training MT the way kata is for karate. I mean there is no comparison between the two.

There is a disconnect in Kyokushin with kata and you see this when you compare it to Okinawan Goju/Uechi ryu katas - who imho are doing it the way it should be done.

There is not just one real bunkai and everything else is wrong, it is not restricted and the only limit is what really works in reality.
There are different explanations to techniques and different uses. What we need to be careful with is that those are practical and would actually work in today's world. The problem with bunkai is that a lot of people have come up with really silly applications for techniques that don't make sense in reality. That's particularly true in arts like Shotokan.
Thankfully there is also some great bunkai out there, especially in arts like Kyokushin.
In my opinion the quality of kata depends immensely on the instructor, and you do have cases of instructors in Kyokushin who focus so much on the Knockdown aspect (sport aspect) that kata is under-trained and that leaves you with practitioners who perform terrible kata and cannot explain what the techniques can be used for. This is probably what you have witnessed.
I have had the chance to train in different types of Kyokushin dojos. Some had a huge focus on kata, performing it correctly, and learning and drilling bunkai, while others only bothered with kata when gradings were approaching and they just wanted to get it out of the way quickly without spending much time on it.

I've seen some incredibly nonsensical bunkai in Kyokushin too - it's not just restricted to shotokan. You even see it among well established Kyokushin karateka and even more senior well known names that I'd rather not mention. I think a big part of the problem is those teaching have no idea about the human anatomy/biomechanics or the origin/purpose of some of the techniques themselves.

It's not restricted to any style - all styles outside those of Okinawa suffer from it - the exception being Abernathy & a few others who I feel do bunkai justice.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Keep the techniques

ditch point sparring all together

stick to full contact light thai style sparring with hard contact every once in a while

IMO

 

[Azam]

I've heard it from people who have trained under Sosai from the very start and are very important Kyokushin figures today.
I have trained under Hanshi Steve Arneil for a bit, and he's said several times how important kata and bunkai was for Sosai, and they trained it a lot when he was in Japan training under him.
Shihan Howard Collins has also mentioned it before.
Hearing those 2 tell us about Oyama training it with them is enough proof for me. It's your choice not to believe it.
Also, from an interview of Hanshi talking about Oyama: "Stevu, he would say - he couldn’t say Steven, Stevu half of your life you learn kata, the other half you learn to understand what you are doing!"

I have some of Sosai's books but haven't even opened them yet so I can't tell you if it's also present in them or not. (maybe Azam knows?)

Some of it is alright and some of it isn't. I'd go further and say that you should really give some of those books a read - some of it is good & some of it is shocking especially for someone in his position. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Check your inbox.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

I think practicing kata can teach good footwork, and it is very kid and beginer friendly. I've trained at several places and some of them them introduced sparring too early for it to be any good. They also went harder than is necessary

The instructor I respected the most avoided sparring. His method was more like aggressive mitt work.

 

[AshiharaFan]

As mentioned previously, there are a lot of techniques in martial arts which are not what you would tend to use in a real fight. You just have to select what really works for you. In Kyokushin you also learn a lot of different kicks in kihon, a lot of jodan kicks and jumping kicks that you would not use in a real fight.

If what you're after is what works in a real fight and avoid anything traditional, you might as well not bother researching/training traditional karate, Kyokushin Karate, or Ashihara Karate and instead just do something like boxing, mma or krav maga.

I disagree with certain "traditional" arts not being effective or street oriented. I think most techniques and overall strategy of Ashihara Karate as well as Daido Juku/Kudo are very street effective. We have to keep in mind that Kancho Hideyuki Ashihara intended for his style to be for self protection and not tournaments which is one of the reasons why some people used to refer to his way of fighting as "street fight" Karate and why today it is still referred to as Jissen Karate. And Azuma Takeshi developed Daido Juku with the vision of the Kumite having the closest, ultimate similarity with a one-on-one brawl or street fight. While on this topic I have observed some of the movements and techniques in Shintaiikudo (Shihan Makoto Hirohara) as well as Shinbudo Karate (Shihan Takumi Higadashani) and I can see plenty of movements that I believe will work in a street fight even though these two styles are "traditional" styles of Karate (having descended from Ashihara Kai)

Let's look at it this way, we have 3 options:

-option1: train a martial art that has kata, and just learn the bear minimum of kata that you're required to learn without spending any time on it or even trying to understand it. That's what a lot of traditional karate dojos do (I come from Shotokan originally and witnessed that).

-option2: train a martial art that has kata, but instead of doing the bear minimum and not giving it much attention, trying to understand it and how you could use it and make it beneficial for you. This is my case.
Personally I don't really care if the bunkai I'm being taught is the original bunkai and applications that the original masters designed the techniques for or not. What I care about is that the bunkai I am being taught makes sense (as in I can see how that technique could be use for a particular application) and most importantly that it could be used in a real fight / self defence situation. Then I just drill it to make it work and be able to use it instinctively.
As Azam mentioned we have very little track record of what the bunkai was like ages ago when the styles of karate and their katas were created. And even if we did, a lot of it most probably would not fit today's world and requirements for effectiveness. Here we would be having another argument about the 'bunkai neysayers' who would say it was effective back in the day but is not relevant to today's world.

-option3: train a martial art with no kata (this seems to be what you want)

I am attracted to option 4: practice traditional kata only with the intent of it contributing towards the development of agility, speed, footwork, coordination, focus, power and reflexes but not bothering with the so-called "Bunkai". And you are wrong about me wanting option 3. I don't mind traditional kata, I just don't subscribe to the Bunkai mentality. Plain and simple.

But I do find the kata of Ashihara, Enshin and Seidokaikan to be more realistic and pragmatic than classical kata. And UNLIKE CLASSICAL kata, the Sabaki (or Bunkai if you prefer that term) of these kata were CREATED and TAUGHT by the CREATORS OF THE KATA FOR WHICH THE SABAKI/BUNKAI ARE APPLIED TO. Same thing with the kata and bunkai of Shinbudo and Shintaiikudo. We simply do not have this with classical kata. The bunkai of Ashihara, Enshin, Seidokaikan, Shintaiikudo and Shinbudo were all created by the same people who created the kata of these styles. They each have a documented and verifiable "Tree". Not so with the classical kata.

And the Bunkai of these kata are more realistic for modern combat than the "Bunkais" that people seem to be making up for classical kata. Have you ever thought to ask yourself if the Bunkai of classical kata were legitimate and sanctioned by the creators of the classical kata then why is there hundreds upon hundreds of bunkai for just one kata? Why isn't there one verifiable bunkai per kata? I'll tell you why; because many people who came AFTER the creators of these kata took it upon themselves to come up with these classical bunkai scenarios. What was meant to be practiced and explored on an individual basis eventually had the personal biases, preferences, beliefs and possibly experiences of certain practitioners arbitrarily latched onto them and being spread as THE interpretation and disassembly of these kata. And like many other aspects in life the masses accepted these spoonfed ideas without question and are helping to spread it. The more people accept this falsehood without questioning it, the more it gets spread around.

I've heard it from people who have trained under Sosai from the very start and are very important Kyokushin figures today.
I have trained under Hanshi Steve Arneil for a bit, and he's said several times how important kata and bunkai was for Sosai, and they trained it a lot when he was in Japan training under him.
Shihan Howard Collins has also mentioned it before.
Hearing those 2 tell us about Oyama training it with them is enough proof for me. It's your choice not to believe it.
Also, from an interview of Hanshi talking about Oyama: "Stevu, he would say - he couldn’t say Steven, Stevu half of your life you learn kata, the other half you learn to understand what you are doing!"

I have some of Sosai's books but haven't even opened them yet so I can't tell you if it's also present in them or not. (maybe Azam knows?)

Look at your statements that I have placed in bold print. These statements are part of the problem and that problem is hearsay. You yourself did not hear it directly from Sosai Oyama. You said you heard it from a couple of people who have trained directly under Sosai while many, many, many others who ALSO trained directly under Sosai make NO SUCH CLAIMS (or statements).

Yes, I choose not to believe. When a person makes statements such as "Hearing those 2 tell us about Oyama training it with them is enough proof for me" that only shows that person is easily swayed by others verbally without attempting to ponder, question or look into it themselves. The word of two people against the scores of others who also trained under Sosai is a bad choice to believe in imho. But you (as well as everyone else here) are free to believe or disbelieve in whatever you like.

By the way, I can tell you with 100% certainty that there is no such thing as Bunkai in the books Mastering Karate (formally titled What Is Karate), Mas Oyama's Essential Karate (which is the same as Mas Oyama's Complete Karate Course but under a different title) and, most importantly, the BIBLE of Kyokushin Karate which is Sosai Oyama's book This Is Karate. I know this because I have these books.

I don't believe most kihon techniques are useless like you think they are.

What I'm saying is that some of them might be more relevant for real fighting and real self defence application than others. It's also a lot about the individual, their physique, and how comfortable they are with each technique.

I can agree with this last part (about the individual and what he brings to the table) although you did say with your own words (onscreen) that most of the techniques are not useful or ideal. Again, these are your words:

In a real fight where your life depends on it, most of the techniques drilled in martial arts aren't ideal to be used anyway. You should have a repertoire of maybe 2 or 3 very effective techniques that you can execute very fast without even thinking about it.

In a real fight you won't have time to think about how to get your opponent to bend over or on his knees. Unless you seriously drill techniques for that purpose it most probably won't happen the way you want.

Kicking someone in the face/head is great but very difficult to pull in a real life situation, and that's ignoring the fact that you might not be wearing the right trousers to kick high enough, and there's also a big risk of losing balance, slipping or getting taken down.

I have succeeded at doing this on more than one occasion (kicking someone in the face when they were still down on their knees and I made it back to my feet) although not as a Martial Artist or Karate-ka. I've pulled off this tactic in a couple of senseless street fights I've had back in my more troublesome years. I'm sure it was visually sloppy and crude but oh well.

 

[devante]

Keep the techniques

ditch point sparring all together

stick to full contact light thai style sparring with hard contact every once in a while

IMO

i prob would agree, but i think point fighting can have some very tangible benefits in regards to footwork..dist mgmt...timing...tech...setups.

the guys i know who did point sparring and transitioned into more contact, usually were very good in those areas, much moreso than guy who never had that b/g.

 

[AshiharaFan]

And I hope you understand the difference between an opinion and a fact.
What I am telling you is that FOR ME kata makes much more sense when you're able to understand the meaning of the techniques and what they could be used for, and then drill them.
This is not a fact, just a personal preference. If you prefer doing kata without looking for how it could be used, that's your choice.

In your last reply you asserted your opinion as though it was a fact. I'm referring to this statement:

Since I started training in Kyokushin under a Kyokushin Sensei who by his profession in a prison has to master effective self protection techniques and who therefore puts an emphasis on Bunkai and Goshin-Jutsu, I have discovered how important kata and bunkai are and how kata without bunkai is losing a lot of its value.

I see no statement of opinion or how important and valuable kata is FOR YOU. I see a statement made as though it was a fact which is why I said what I said concerning the differences between opinion and fact. I meant nothing personal or condescending by it and I do apologize if it came off that way.

You missed the point completely here and went off rails.
It's not about training a martial art only by yourself or that martial arts can be 'solo practised'. My point was that kata can be a tool to train if you're alone without equipment. It doesn't mean that training kata by yourself is enough and that you don't need partner work, and it also doesn't mean that kata is a necessity and that you can't do without it.

I can see that you missed MY POINT Sir and I don't see how repeating or reiterating it would get you to understand it if it was already misunderstood the first time around. I can only ask you very humbly to re-read my statement you quoted but read YOUR STATEMENT before it to which I was responding.

You're so anti kihon and kata and seem to like turning up to a gym with training partners and equipment, it sounds to me that boxing, kickboxing, or MMA would be a better fit for you.

Tay, I thought you knew better than to judge people whom you do not personally know; especially when you are "Misjudging" a person based on you "Misunderstanding" their position. There is nothing in any of my posts that would suggest that I am anti khon and anti kata as you wish to convince yourself that I am. Just because a person does not share your views and opinions (especially when those views are not historically verifiable facts) should not compel you to start slapping uncalled for labels on him. This is just sincere and friendly advice from one Martial Artist to another (many of whom's posts I have read here and have grown a huge amount of admiration and respect for).

Sparring with your sparring gear on will not teach you new techniques, only let you test the techniques you already know.

Of course. And when I do learn new techniques it is my decision whether or not I wish to try them in my next sparring session.

In any case, it is your choice to choose what you believe is important for you and what you don't want to include as part of your training.

As with everyone else here. But I DO NOT take it personally if someone disagrees with me and doesn't share my views.

Your argument that bunkai is not necessary can be used for many other things. I could say for example that rope skipping is not necessary and that there are other ways for me to work my cardio with roadwork, sprinting and swimming instead.

I totally agree!! It is a choice which is what I have been saying ALL ALONG!! You choose to believe in bunkai of classical kata and practice it and I choose NOT to believe in it nor practice it. In no way will I ever label you or judge you based on our differences in views.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

i prob would agree, but i think point fighting can have some very tangible benefits in regards to footwork..dist mgmt...timing...tech...setups.

eh basically the whole idea with arguing for pointing fighting is it will essentially develop distance and stop hitting


Plenty of fighters from other styles were good at interrupting someones attack with one of their own and getting out of range . It's not something unique to point fighting and rather than develop it in that format and then have to tinker with it to carry it over to full contact its better to develop it right in a full contact setting from the start IMO.

 

[freaky]

They all work. All martial arts work. The problem is that most of them don't spar realistically. That's why you see bjj/judo and boxing/MT taking over because of their training/sparring style. If all martial arts train and spar realistically then all martial arts will work. Keep your karate and train them realistically. Put on pads, gloves helmet and everything and go 50%. Use speed and technique but minimal power. Maybe once in a blue moon go 100%.

 

[Azam]

Kihon isn't useless.

Kihon is an integral part of all karate.

Kihon is only useless when you don't spar full contact and don't apply the techniques in a realistic scenario. What's the point of repetitive kicking and punching if you aren't going to willfully punch or kick someone.

Repetition is what improves technique and imo done properly kihon builds the correct physical characteristics required to throw strikes consistently throughout sparring.

The effect especially on kicks in Kihon is extremely underrated - the flexibility, control and strength it builds is second to none. Some of the greatest karate kickers like Ryu Narushima, Midori & Matsui - stress kihon & repetition in the air because it forces your body to learn to control the kick - with control comes flexibility & strength in those movements.


The only thing that needs to be ditched is the point sparring. Legs said it best - light contact sparring regularly with hard sparring once in a while.

Even kata has it's place - but the way it's done now it's become more of an artistic expression rather than a genuine tool of training. It genuinely makes me cringe when people go through kata movements with the aim of making a whipping noise of the Gi to impress the judges....and that's what kata in nearly every style has been reduced to.

I think the blame should be put on founders of styles that themselves had little or virtually no knowledge of what kata was - the newer modern styles suffer from this less the old. Okinawan karate does a better job of it than it's mainland counterpart - then again we don't see Hojo Undo being used in it's entirety in most parts of Japan even though it is an essential part of karate.

Less so the equipment more so what the point of it was.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Keep your karate and train them realistically. Put on pads, gloves helmet and everything and go 50%. Use speed and technique but minimal power. Maybe once in a blue moon go 100%.

Yes. Thankfully this training and sparring protocol is gaining more and more ground among many traditionalists; particularly Kyokushin and derived styles and even some styles that are not Kyokushin based but simply influenced by Kyokushin (such as Byakuren Karate).

 

[shinkyoku]

I think the blame should be put on founders of styles that themselves had little or virtually no knowledge of what kata was

I remember a high level shotokan leader/legend (I THINK it was Enoeda. It may have been kanazawa) who once commented in an interview that they had never learned any applications for kata. When they were asked by the students what the meaning of the kata moves was, they made up stuff on the spot to avoid embarrassment.

the newer modern styles suffer from this less the old.

There is a strong and growing trend in karate to search for pragmatic and realistic applications for kata. I am a great believer in the research of guys like Iain Abernethy.



Not that I think everything he and his likeminded come up with is good (IMO), but it certainly is better than the unrealistic "traditional" applications.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJPNkC3iHV8

 

[Jukai]

Ugh, haha, any thread where people shit on point sparring and praise guys like Iain Abernethy are praised as the next coming is a thread that makes me uncomfortable.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Kihon isn't useless.

Kihon is an integral part of all karate.

I'm going to respectfully disagree and repeat what I said in my 2nd post on this thread that it depends upon the Kihon of the style that is practiced and their manner of training their Kihon.

With that said, I'd say that there are many kihon that are not useful at all in reality such as uraken shomen uchi, uraken sayu uchi, shuto sakotsu uchikomi, the infamous "chicken's beak" fist (koken), mawashi uke (as practiced in Kyokushin) and tegatana uke just name a few.

Kihon is only useless when you don't spar full contact and don't apply the techniques in a realistic scenario. What's the point of repetitive kicking and punching if you aren't going to willfully punch or kick someone.

This is EXACTLY my point Sir. I have yet to see any of the techniques that I named above utilized in any live situation. It's not the repetitive kicking and punching that I am arguing against as I think punching (especially Western Boxing style punching) and certain kicking motions are very useful, powerful and accessible. It is the repetitive drilling of those other techniques (such as the above named) that I think most people can do without.

Repetition is what improves technique and imo done properly kihon builds the correct physical characteristics required to throw strikes consistently throughout sparring.

No argument from me except where we differ on which Kihon techniques should be repetitively drilled.

The effect especially on kicks in Kihon is extremely underrated - the flexibility, control and strength it builds is second to none. Some of the greatest karate kickers like Ryu Narushima, Midori & Matsui - stress kihon & repetition in the air because it forces your body to learn to control the kick - with control comes flexibility & strength in those movements.

I find myself in agreement with this but only to the extent that I believe only certain kicks are worth the effort. It is my humble opinion that all of the kicks that we see today's Nak Muay using are worth the effort but I do not feel the same way for Bill Wallace's three famous kicks which he used to throw from one chamber and head high.

The only thing that needs to be ditched is the point sparring. Legs said it best - light contact sparring regularly with hard sparring once in a while.

I can go with this. No argument from me here.

Even kata has it's place - but the way it's done now it's become more of an artistic expression rather than a genuine tool of training. It genuinely makes me cringe when people go through kata movements with the aim of making a whipping noise of the Gi to impress the judges....and that's what kata in nearly every style has been reduced to.

Kata may have it's place but if anyone here thinks that place has to do with Bunkai then I would thoroughly disagree. I can honestly say that I have never been a believer in or proponent of Bunkai. I believe that you are a Kyokushin practitioner? If so, I'm sure you are aware that there isn't anything to suggest that Sosai Oyama ever taught or promoted Bunkai.

Where I personally believe that Kata may have a place is that I think it helps a student develop good footwork, speed, coordination, agility and overall Karate athleticism. But I would also say that today Kata aren't needed to develop these things since there are other (and some would say better) ways of accomplishing these attributes.

I think the blame should be put on founders of styles that themselves had little or virtually no knowledge of what kata was - the newer modern styles suffer from this less the old. Okinawan karate does a better job of it than it's mainland counterpart - then again we don't see Hojo Undo being used in it's entirety in most parts of Japan even though it is an essential part of karate.

Less so the equipment more so what the point of it was.

And to this I can only refer you to what I said above concerning Kata.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Ugh, haha, any thread where people shit on point sparring and praise guys like Iain Abernethy are praised as the next coming is a thread that makes me uncomfortable.

I'm glad you brought this up because I can now elaborate on what I said to Tayski about the whole Classical Bunkai thing.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for Ian Abernathy and I'm sure that he takes his Karate studies very seriously, but looking at what he is doing in the clips that Shinkyoku posted here I believe serves to prove what I was saying to Tayski; and that is how CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS (such as Mr. Ian Abernathy) have taken it upon themselves to not only assume that there must be a Bunkai for the classical kata but to also devise the assumed bunkai
himself based on whatever ideas of combat in his head.

When you have thousands upon thousands of Karate practitioners doing this and thousands upon thousands of other practitioners accepting this arbitrary idea without questioning the legitimacy of this idea and then they themselves continue this practice by teaching it to others, you eventually have a situation such as that we have today which is that some people are truly convinced of the legitimacy of the bunkai practice but are only convinced of it based on a lot of other people being convinced of it and none of them researched, questioned or proved the legitimacy of this practice according to the creators of the katas in question.

I thinks it's quite sad to see (otherwise intelligent) adults vehemently defend this practice even though they have never been provided proof for it nor have they themselves provided the proof of it's legitimacy.

NOW, if someone like Ian Abernathy as he teaches his personal bunkai was to routinely issue a disclaimer along the lines of "This is not something that has been proved and is not a standard understanding of applied Karate but is only my own understanding and a practice that I enjoy engaging in" then I wouldn't have much to say about it because I feel that such a disclaimer would be less of a miseducation than the bunkai practice without this disclaimer.

 

[Azam]

I remember a high level shotokan leader/legend (I THINK it was Enoeda. It may have been kanazawa) who once commented in an interview that they had never learned any applications for kata. When they were asked by the students what the meaning of the kata moves was, they made up stuff on the spot to avoid embarrassment.



There is a strong and growing trend in karate to search for pragmatic and realistic applications for kata. I am a great believer in the research of guys like Iain Abernethy.



Not that I think everything he and his likeminded come up with is good (IMO), but it certainly is better than the unrealistic "traditional" applications.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJPNkC3iHV8

True I'm an admirer of his - he does a great job - better than most at explaining kata.

But I'm of the believe that if you want to know the origins/purpose of kata you have to look the founders because contrary to popular belief they knew the purpose/applications - Karate's biggest problem was that the generation of karateka that the founders taught (earliest students) were killed off in droves during world war 2.

Miyagi's successor - can't remember his name - his most serious senior students died in the war or stopped training - Okinawa suffered incredibly - many died of starvation/famine/poverty. It got to the point where there was only one student that he trained & he refused to accept any others. Funakoshi also had the same problem - he was an old man when his famous students supposedly trained with him - Okazaki, Nishiyama, Kanazawa, Kase etc etc - nearly all of them trained when he was an 80 year old man.

Nakayama was supposedly the one teaching at the time for all the above but he only trained for 5 years with Funakoshi & then again when Funakoshi was an old man.

The only legitimate lines of karate knowledge from Funakoshi that kept training were Gigo who died young & Egami who suffered from illness all his life.


You had an entire knowledge line wiped out by the war for Goju ryu and very few original students of Funakoshi left. It's no wonder that the generation after had no idea what kata was when they started learning when Funakoshi was far too old to teach & the same in Miyagi's case.


Only one student stayed with Miyagi & learnt directly from him & that was An'ichi Miyagi who technically became his successor. Miyazato was apparently more interested in Judo than Karate.

 

[Tayski]

a lot of training methods are subjective and the instructor's view on things.
You say koken is useless but that's your opinion, just because you think it's useless doesn't mean it is useless.

We have to provide you with written proof that certain things are the way they are however you apply your own judgement on things and spread that as facts.
Just because you haven't seen or heard something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't true.

Essentially most martial arts are taught master to student and so on. So it is a subjective view on the art which is then taught to another person and so on.
Some books exist, but they do not contain everything there is to know about the art and it's not because you train or teach things with your own touch to it that it is incorrect / false / ineffective. Otherwise today we'd still only have the original karate styles and not the new adapted styles such as Kyokushin and it's offshoots.

 

[Azam]

I'm going to respectfully disagree and repeat what I said in my 2nd post on this thread that it depends upon the Kihon of the style that is practiced and their manner of training their Kihon.

With that said, I'd say that there are many kihon that are not useful at all in reality such as uraken shomen uchi, uraken sayu uchi, shuto sakotsu uchikomi, the infamous "chicken's beak" fist (koken), mawashi uke (as practiced in Kyokushin) and tegatana uke just name a few.

I should have been a bit more specific - some techniques are utterly rubbish. You've mentioned a few of them. I'm referring more to proven uke like mawashi uke, osae uke etc etc. Tegatana uke is silly when you can use shuto. But I agree with you here.

I find myself in agreement with this but only to the extent that I believe only certain kicks are worth the effort. It is my humble opinion that all of the kicks that we see today's Nak Muay using are worth the effort but I do not feel the same way for Bill Wallace's three famous kicks which he used to throw from one chamber and head high.

I think it depends on your build more so than anything else. I'm 5ft7 - you won't ever see me bother using kakato otoshi for example - pointless given my height.

Some are worth the effort - some are not. I won't for example bother with teeps - I need to get into to range because of most people have a reach advantage over me.

Some kicks that Nak Muay don't generally use are also worth the effort. It depends to a large degree on what types of kicks are being drilled in Kihon. Most of the kicks in Kyokushin are worth the effort - as are the majority you see in Karate.

Kata may have it's place but if anyone here thinks that place has to do with Bunkai then I would thoroughly disagree. I can honestly say that I have never been a believer in or proponent of Bunkai. I believe that you are a Kyokushin practitioner? If so, I'm sure you are aware that there isn't anything to suggest that Sosai Oyama ever taught or promoted Bunkai.

Where I personally believe that Kata may have a place is that I think it helps a student develop good footwork, speed, coordination, agility and overall Karate athleticism. But I would also say that today Kata aren't needed to develop these things since there are other (and some would say better) ways of accomplishing these attributes.

Not a Kyokushin practitioner technically - switching to Daido Juku soon - still a karateka through and through.

I agree with the bunkai - but I admire & respect those who try to find the meaning in kata & sometimes what you see is interesting. I'm in your camp - most katas are just foundational tools to introduce techniques.

The exception is with a few kata that are not foundational tools - Sanchin & Tensho for example are the bedrock of Karate to me. Sanchin is the heart of all Karate in my eyes - those two katas should be done everyday. They go beyond foundational tools and are actual training tools to improve your karate.

How to breath when being punched, how to absorb shots, how to deliver leverage with strikes (the karate way) etc etc - all covered in Sanchin - when done properly.

Kata in Kyokushin unfortunately is a mess. I don't think Oyama even knew what he was teaching there.

 

[Tayski]

These statements are part of the problem and that problem is hearsay. You yourself did not hear it directly from Sosai Oyama. You said you heard it from a couple of people who have trained directly under Sosai while many, many, many others who ALSO trained directly under Sosai make NO SUCH CLAIMS (or statements).

Yes, I choose not to believe. When a person makes statements such as "Hearing those 2 tell us about Oyama training it with them is enough proof for me" that only shows that person is easily swayed by others verbally without attempting to ponder, question or look into it themselves. The word of two people against the scores of others who also trained under Sosai is a bad choice to believe in imho. But you (as well as everyone else here) are free to believe or disbelieve in whatever you like.

You can call Hanshi Arneil and Shihan Collins liars if you want.
Who are the 'scores of people' who tell you different?

Do you also ask your senseis to show you books that contain what they teach you? If they can't show you books which contain everything they teach you do you tell them that they're part of the problem called hearsay?

 

[Celestial Kid]

Youtube search: karate tournaments. Kung fu tournaments. Practitioners should have good form enough to take out any street thug.

 

[AshiharaFan]

a lot of training methods are subjective and the instructor's view on things.
You say koken is useless but that's your opinion, just because you think it's useless doesn't mean it is useless.

I have yet to witness or even hear about someone using this "fist" in a real fight. I have yet to see it even be attempted in a mma fight where it would have it's best chance of being pulled off.

We have to provide you with written proof that certain things are the way they are however you apply your own judgement on things and spread that as facts.
Just because you haven't seen or heard something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't true.

Aaahhh, and the straw clutching begins. Gichin Funakoshi left behind Karate-do Kyohan. There are literally hundreds of instructional, strategical and theoretical manuals left behind by Chinese Martial Arts Masters; the very people that most of the Okinawan Karate-ka went to for Martial knowledge. The IDEA and RESOURCES to leave behind written documentation for the sake of proper posterity and legacy was there for any inventor of katas to use. To have done so would have left their Okinawa-te intact and a defense against misteachings and misinterpretations.

Because we don't have anything on kata bunkai left to humanity by the inventors of the classical katas we are left with people like you who want so desparately to believe that classical bunkai should be part of traditional Karate teaching. How so very wise and foresighted it was of Kancho Hideyuki Ashihara to leave HIS bunkai in HIS books and videos. And so very nice of Kancho Joko Ninomiya, Kazuyoshi Ishii, Makoto Hirohara, Soke David C. Cook and Takumi Higashidani to follow suit for their respective katas which they devised. Wow.

Essentially most martial arts are taught master to student and so on. So it is a subjective view on the art which is then taught to another person and so on.
Some books exist,

Let's stop right there. SOME books exist but NO BOOKS exist by the inventors of kata teaching, explaining and legitimizing your precious kata bunkai. The inventors of the classical katas could have written books on kata bunkai but no such thing was done. Hhmmmmm..........

but they do not contain everything there is to know about the art and it's not because you train or teach things with your own touch to it that it is incorrect / false / ineffective. Otherwise today we'd still only have the original karate styles and not the new adapted styles such as Kyokushin and it's offshoots.

LOL, rriiiight.

You can call Hanshi Arneil and Shihan Collins liars if you want.

You can accuse me of calling them liars if you want to, I don't care Tay. I'm not calling them liars, I am calling them human beings; human beings who are in the position to not be questioned by those who did not train directly under Sosai Oyama. Human beings who are uniquely positioned to teach their students whatever they want to teach them. Human beings who are Just As Human as any other person. I'll leave it to you to understand and interpret that however you want. As for me, I have learned to use my brain and questions the things that can and should be questioned.

Who are the 'scores of people' who tell you different?

First things first, please stop misquoting me. Unlike you I never claimed that I was told by someone (which is next to impossible to verify). THIS is what I said:

You said you heard it from a couple of people who have trained directly under Sosai while many, many, many others who ALSO trained directly under Sosai make NO SUCH CLAIMS (or statements).

The word of two people against the scores of others who also trained under Sosai is a bad choice to believe in imho.

Now that that is out of the way, I mean the scores of other students who trained under Sosai Oyama who never, ever make (or made) such mention of Sosai showing them kata bunkai. Like I said to you before, YOU are the first and only person I have come across to make such a claim.

How about we call down to Alabama to ask Soshu Shigeru Oyama and his brother Saiko Shihan Yasuhiko Oyama if they teach their students kata bunkai that they learned from Sosai Oyama. Or perhaps we can get in contact with Shokei Matsui and ask him the same thing. Or perhaps you can read page 130 of Kancho Hideyuki Ashihara's "Fighting Karate" to see what he had to say on this topic. Or we can head on over to the Kyokushin4Life forum and read all of the threads and posts that say the same thing that I am saying here which is that Sosai Oyama did not (I'll repeat for clarity) DID NOT teach his students bunkai.

If you had done your history on Kyokushin you would have realized like any other Kyokushin Afficionado that it is very clear that kata applications are not traditionally a part of Kyokushin. In fact, they are not even a part of a significant portion of traditional karate let alone Kyokushin.

Do you also ask your senseis to show you books that contain what they teach you? If they can't show you books which contain everything they teach you do you tell them that they're part of the problem called hearsay?

Not everything, just the things that I think Can and Should be questioned (like I said earlier in this post).

I have this all figured out. I can tell you are not interested in other people's views and understandings on this topic which is why my tantrum radar is starting to go off when reading your last replies to me. You have taken up a position in the ages old kata bunkai debate and you are only interested in defending that position at all costs no matter what arguments or ways of thinking others may present to you while discussing this.

I don't think my disagreeing with you is the only thing that bothers you. I think it bothers you even more so that I am the type of person to use my own brain and question things and not just go on emotions or what others "simply say" and that what other people simply say would be "good enough for me". A deficiency in honesty and intellect usually comes with that mentality and when another person exposes that mentality then we have a situation that I see developing in this thread in which the person with said mentality starts to post tantrums instead of civil discussion.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Some are worth the effort - some are not. I won't for example bother with teeps - I need to get into to range because of most people have a reach advantage over me.

I do see your point here but I think teep kicks are worth the effort to practice and perfect. I have learned through sparring that they work against others that are taller (and even faster) than me. Remember, you can throw a teep with your rear leg also which can give you that extra range and reach.

Some kicks that Nak Muay don't generally use are also worth the effort. It depends to a large degree on what types of kicks are being drilled in Kihon. Most of the kicks in Kyokushin are worth the effort - as are the majority you see in Karate.

If we are talking Okinawan or Japanese Karate I agree. If we are adding WTF Taekwondo to the mix I would personally disagree. Crescent kicks, axe kicks, hook kicks and flying kicks may look good and may actually be pulled off by a few exceptional people in mma type competitions, but they are not something I would want to try to use in a real fight where my life may actually be on the line.

Not a Kyokushin practitioner technically - switching to Daido Juku soon - still a karateka through and through.

SAME HERE! I'll also be switching to Daido Juku soon*. Right now I am training in muay Thai. I just don't know if I would be dropping the muay Thai when I start the Daido Juku training or if I will make the room to fit both activities into my training schedule. But within the past year I have become a HUGE Daido Juku fan.

I agree with the bunkai - but I admire & respect those who try to find the meaning in kata & sometimes what you see is interesting. I'm in your camp - most katas are just foundational tools to introduce techniques.

For me personally the only way I would have accepted Bunkai as a legitimate practice would have been if the Karate Masters who had created today's Kata such as the Heian/Pinan katas also left behind verifiable documentation that there was a Bunkai to accompany each kata. Then I would accept it as true and would engage in it myself. But I have come to learn that there is no such thing. What we DO HAVE are some obscure individuals in Karate's chronology that claim to be recipients of Bunkai from the masters of old. Claims which I have no choice but to find highly questionable at best.

The exception is with a few kata that are not foundational tools - Sanchin & Tensho for example are the bedrock of Karate to me. Sanchin is the heart of all Karate in my eyes - those two katas should be done everyday. They go beyond foundational tools and are actual training tools to improve your karate.

How to breath when being punched, how to absorb shots, how to deliver leverage with strikes (the karate way) etc etc - all covered in Sanchin - when done properly.

Hhhmmm.....you may be right and I have no argument against this. I only wish to repeat what I said in a prior post that even though some kata may be able to help a Karate-ka develop these attributes, there are other ways of developing these attributes, many of which some people would prefer over Sanchin kata or would even go so far as to say are better ways of doing so.

An example of breathing when being punched and absorbing shots is what we do at my (and I believe is done at most) muay Thai gym and that is to have a partner whack the Hell out of our midsections with a Thai pad as we do sit ups and forcefully exhale with the impact. This is just one example and this particular practice I personally prefer over performing Sanchin kata for the purpose of knowing how to breath when being punched and how to absorb shots. In my mind this is safer and more expedient than doing Sanchin kata.

Kata in Kyokushin unfortunately is a mess. I don't think Oyama even knew what he was teaching there.

I don't think I understand what you mean here. Would you care to elaborate?

EDIT - *I may also want to get involved with the Shidokan crowd as well or get together with some people and promote a tournament based on the Shidokan triathlon format. The only difference would be the Thai Boxing rounds would be Authentic muay Thai rounds and not modified Kickboxing or K-1 type rules. So that means elbows would be included as well as the Thai Clinch and throws from the clinch.

 

[AshiharaFan]

And to add to what I said about Kancho Ashihara and others leaving behind the bunkai/disassembly in books and videos for the kata that they have invented, BOOKS (written documentation) and VIDEOS (visual documentation) will always, always, always be more reliable than so-called word of mouth passed down through generations. Perhaps you could use a history lesson in Chinese Whispers (pay attention the 2nd definition closely).

 

[Azam]

If we are talking Okinawan or Japanese Karate I agree. If we are adding WTF Taekwondo to the mix I would personally disagree. Crescent kicks, axe kicks, hook kicks and flying kicks may look good and may actually be pulled off by a few exceptional people in mma type competitions, but they are not something I would want to try to use in a real fight where my life may actually be on the line.

You'd be surprised - some flying kicks are actually effective provided you know how to apply them & when to apply them. I've got a whole analysis on one particular flying kick that I jotted down in my book - and physical footage of this application being applied & consistently being effective.

I think the problem is less with how flashy a kick is but more how & when to apply it. Not many instructors who teach said flashy kicks will actually know enough to teach how & when to apply them effectively.

SAME HERE! I'll also be switching to Daido Juku soon*. Right now I am training in muay Thai. I just don't know if I would be dropping the muay Thai when I start the Daido Juku training or if I will make the room to fit both activities into my training schedule. But within the past year I have become a HUGE Daido Juku fan.

I'm a big fan of the competitive format - I'd still train Kyokushin but I'm mainly looking at Kudo - would like to compete in it in future.

For me personally the only way I would have accepted Bunkai as a legitimate practice would have been if the Karate Masters who had created today's Kata such as the Heian/Pinan katas also left behind verifiable documentation that there was a Bunkai to accompany each kata. Then I would accept it as true and would engage in it myself. But I have come to learn that there is no such thing. What we DO HAVE are some obscure individuals in Karate's chronology that claim to be recipients of Bunkai from the masters of old. Claims which I have no choice but to find highly questionable at best.

Most claims are difficult to prove - since most direct students passed away early, died in the world wars, stopped training or faded into obscurity. Only one karateka for example could claim a direct lineage to Chojun Miyagi and that was An'ichi - he was there through it all and learnt directly from Chojun for many many years until his death - An'ichi is Higaonna's Sensei/instructor and the man that Chojun Miyagi actually passed his knowledge onto. Miyazato who is often attributed as a student actually was more into Judo and his training with Chojun was erratic. For many years An'ichi was Miyagi's only senior student.

Hhhmmm.....you may be right and I have no argument against this. I only wish to repeat what I said in a prior post that even though some kata may be able to help a Karate-ka develop these attributes, there are other ways of developing these attributes, many of which some people would prefer over Sanchin kata or would even go so far as to say are better ways of doing so.

True - this is a matter of opinion though. Sanchin hits multiples birds with one stone - the way conditioning with a thai pad for learning breathing doesn't - when you do sanchin your doing multiple things during the movements & with shime for learning how to breath or nigiri-game so you can add resistance - and develop forearm/grip strength while you learn how to breath simultaneously.

My opinion of Sanchin greatly changed when I saw how the Uechi ryu karateka in Okinawa approach it - in my opinion this is the way Sanchin was meant to be done.

I don't think I understand what you mean here. Would you care to elaborate?

For example - Sanchin breathing is meant to be done from the tandem or stomach or with shallow quick breaths - in either case you have to do Sanchin with full body tension in both Okinawan Goju/Uechi ryu--- in Kyokushin they do neither of these things across the board because Oyama never did it - probably because he learnt kata from Yamaguchi.

Garyu kata made by Oyama - does this really have any purpose? Who in there right mind would kneel down & do mawashi uke....In Kyokushin there is a direct cut off between kata & kumite/kihon - it shouldn't be like that.

 

[Tayski]

I have yet to witness or even hear about someone using this "fist" in a real fight. I have yet to see it even be attempted in a mma fight where it would have it's best chance of being pulled off.

So you're basically saying because you haven't seen it or heard of it being used in a real fight or MMA then it must be useless?

Because we don't have anything on kata bunkai left to humanity by the inventors of the classical katas we are left with people like you who want so desparately to believe that classical bunkai should be part of traditional Karate teaching.

How hypocritical of you to say that about me.
I'll reuse what you've said to me earlier:
I thought you knew better than to judge people whom you do not personally know; especially when you are "Misjudging" a person based on you "Misunderstanding" their position. There is nothing in any of my posts that would suggest that I desperately believe that classical bunkai should be part of traditional Karate teaching as you wish to convince yourself that I do.

Funny how great you are at giving tips to people yet can't apply them yourself.

How so very wise and foresighted it was of Kancho Hideyuki Ashihara to leave HIS bunkai in HIS books and videos. And so very nice of Kancho Joko Ninomiya, Kazuyoshi Ishii, Makoto Hirohara, Soke David C. Cook and Takumi Higashidani to follow suit for their respective katas which they devised. Wow.

They're not from the same times as Gichin Funakoshi and the others, so let's compare what's comparable. But good of them to do so now.

Let's stop right there. SOME books exist but NO BOOKS exist by the inventors of kata teaching, explaining and legitimizing your precious kata bunkai. The inventors of the classical katas could have written books on kata bunkai but no such thing was done. Hhmmmmm..........

There are factors to take into account too, martial arts didn't use to be as commonly accepted as there are now and there has been many bans of martial arts through history, one of the most recent ones being directly after WW2 in Okinawa and Japan.
It's possible some of this content was hidden or lost? Who knows.

First things first, please stop misquoting me. Unlike you I never claimed that I was told by someone (which is next to impossible to verify).

So because you haven't come across any mention of it, it means it didn't happen? That's your reasoning?

Now that that is out of the way, I mean the scores of other students who trained under Sosai Oyama who never, ever make (or made) such mention of Sosai showing them kata bunkai. Like I said to you before, YOU are the first and only person I have come across to make such a claim.

How about you ask a couple of those 'scores of other students who trained under Sosai Oyama'? It might not be as much of a proof as you'd want it to be but at least you'll get a pretty good indication.

How about we call down to Alabama to ask Soshu Shigeru Oyama and his brother Saiko Shihan Yasuhiko Oyama if they teach their students kata bunkai that they learned from Sosai Oyama. Or perhaps we can get in contact with Shokei Matsui and ask him the same thing.

Do it. You're the one who needs convincing, I'm happy with my sources.

I have this all figured out. I can tell you are not interested in other people's views and understandings on this topic which is why my tantrum radar is starting to go off when reading your last replies to me. You have taken up a position in the ages old kata bunkai debate and you are only interested in defending that position at all costs no matter what arguments or ways of thinking others may present to you while discussing this.

You have it all figured out yet you create a thread to get people's opinions.
When I expressed my opinion you aggressively rejected it, while all I was saying is that I found bunkai interesting and useful, even though it is not a necessity. It made me appreciate kata more than just punching in the air.
Re-read your comments and see how you literally attack me for my views and also for believing in one of Oyama's first ever students who is still alive, the head of the IFK and a humble and honest man.

There are other ways to express your views than a "know it all" approach, quoting people with bolds and colours, calling them Sir, making them come across as naive and ignorant, and basically being condescending. It doesn't take much courage to act like that on an internet forum.

 

[AshiharaFan]

You'd be surprised - some flying kicks are actually effective provided you know how to apply them & when to apply them. I've got a whole analysis on one particular flying kick that I jotted down in my book - and physical footage of this application being applied & consistently being effective.

I think the problem is less with how flashy a kick is but more how & when to apply it. Not many instructors who teach said flashy kicks will actually know enough to teach how & when to apply them effectively.

I think I see your point. I guess as long as one makes adequate use of the element of surprise and has proper speed, power, TIMING and distancing, spinning kicks and flying kicks can work. I do think these kinds of kicks may only work on a non Karate-ka as they wouldn't know what to look for (when you're setting up the kick) and, thus, would not know how to defend against it.

I'm a big fan of the competitive format - I'd still train Kyokushin but I'm mainly looking at Kudo - would like to compete in it in future.

At first I was kind of turned off by it before I actually knew what it really was. The bubble helmets is what mainly turned me off. Then I had learned that Semmy Schilt had competed in Kudo tournaments a couple of times and won. I went to good ole' youtube to look at some Kudo/Daido Juku fights and sat through one entire tournament that took place in Russia (you and I both know that the Russians are dominating the sport of Kudo right now) and fell in love with it.

The thing that attracted me most as I was watching some Kudo fights within my first week of becoming a fan is how it is probably the one traditional Martial Art that resembles a fast and furious one-on-one street brawl the most. I remember saying to myself as I was watching these matches that if a person is going to be using any of his Martial Art techniques and skills in a real street brawl this is what it would look like; fast, furious and primal. Forget about aesthetics and artistry but focus on functionality and results.

I have no intentions of giving up training in Ashihara Jissen Karate and I don't know what I am going to do about my muay Thai training once I do start training in Daido Juku.

True - this is a matter of opinion though. Sanchin hits multiples birds with one stone - the way conditioning with a thai pad for learning breathing doesn't - when you do sanchin your doing multiple things during the movements & with shime for learning how to breath or nigiri-game so you can add resistance - and develop forearm/grip strength while you learn how to breath simultaneously.

My opinion of Sanchin greatly changed when I saw how the Uechi ryu karateka in Okinawa approach it - in my opinion this is the way Sanchin was meant to be done.

Thanks for the explanation. Me putting Sanchin kata at arms length stems from some things that I have read over the years about risks of high blood pressure and involuntary hyper tension in connection to the performance of this kata and it kind of made me put Sanchin kata on the shelf....basically permanently.

For example - Sanchin breathing is meant to be done from the tandem or stomach or with shallow quick breaths - in either case you have to do Sanchin with full body tension in both Okinawan Goju/Uechi ryu--- in Kyokushin they do neither of these things across the board because Oyama never did it - probably because he learnt kata from Yamaguchi.

Garyu kata made by Oyama - does this really have any purpose? Who in there right mind would kneel down & do mawashi uke....In Kyokushin there is a direct cut off between kata & kumite/kihon - it shouldn't be like that.

Good explanations. Thanks Azam.

 

[Tayski]

And to add to what I said about Kancho Ashihara and others leaving behind the bunkai/disassembly in books and videos for the kata that they have invented, BOOKS (written documentation) and VIDEOS (visual documentation) will always, always, always be more reliable than so-called word of mouth passed down through generations. Perhaps you could use a history lesson in Chinese Whispers (pay attention the 2nd definition closely).

There's a difference between word of mouth passed through generations, and believing someone I respect and trust when they tell me what they used to practice and train with Sosai Oyama.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Not to get into a shit fest with another "karate sucks!" thread. But I have met plenty of "traditional" Karateka from Goju-ryu, Shotokan etc backgrounds that I have no doubt would easily fuck up the average street thug if they wanted to. Not just because of their choice of martial art, but either because of their speed or understanding of human movement they would easily handle themselves well.

 

[AshiharaFan]

So you're basically saying because you haven't seen it or heard of it being used in a real fight or MMA then it must be useless?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Are you happy now?

How hypocritical of you to say that about me.
I'll reuse what you've said to me earlier:
I thought you knew better than to judge people whom you do not personally know; especially when you are "Misjudging" a person based on you "Misunderstanding" their position. There is nothing in any of my posts that would suggest that I desperately believe that classical bunkai should be part of traditional Karate teaching as you wish to convince yourself that I do.

Funny how great you are at giving tips to people yet can't apply them yourself.

Not hypocritical at all. Your last reply to me let me know that you were slowly but surely taking the gloves off (hence my comment about my tantrum radar going off). I decided to meet you in kind is all. Had you kept it civil and mature I would have done so as well. I'm one of those treat others according to how they treat you type of people.

They're not from the same times as Gichin Funakoshi and the others, so let's compare what's comparable. But good of them to do so now.

You completely ignored my point. The RESOURCES, KNOWLEDGE and MEANS to do so was right there for them to take advantage of. Leaving the world with your own written thoughts and instructions will always trump "Chinese Whispers".

There are factors to take into account too, martial arts didn't use to be as commonly accepted as there are now and there has been many bans of martial arts through history, one of the most recent ones being directly after WW2 in Okinawa and Japan.
It's possible some of this content was hidden or lost? Who knows.

Possible? Yes. Is it LIKELY that knowledge of kata bunkai by the inventors of kata was lost through this means? Not likely because why would THAT aspect of Karate be lost but not the entire art itself including basic practice of kata (as well as kihon)?

So because you haven't come across any mention of it, it means it didn't happen? That's your reasoning?

Because I never cam across any mention of it means that it is highly questionable. That is my reasoning.

How about you ask a couple of those 'scores of other students who trained under Sosai Oyama'? It might not be as much of a proof as you'd want it to be but at least you'll get a pretty good indication.

It'll give me a pretty good indication of what I already believe about this conversation which is Sosai Oyama did not teach his students bunkai. Who was closer to Mas Oyama between Hanshi Steve Arneil and Kancho Shokei Matsui? Why would Sosai Oyama secretly share kata bunkai with Hanshi Arneil but not share it with Kancho Ashihara or Takeshi Azuma or Shokei Matsui? Why don't you try thinking and pondering for a change Tay?

Do it. You're the one who needs convincing, I'm happy with my sources.

By saying that you are happy with your sources you are letting me know ahead of time that you are not going to accept the answers that we will get from these other students of Sosai Oyama. You are also letting me know what I said earlier that you are intellectually dishonest. You will believe what 2 people supposedly told you about Sosai Oyama teaching them kata bunkai even though they seem to be the only two people out of hundreds to claim this. And you choose to believe this without question. Perhaps it is due to your respect and admiration of them which is very understandable. But no human being on earth is above questioning.

You have it all figured out yet you create a thread to get people's opinions.

Again with the deliberate misquotes and twisting of words. When I said I had it figured out I was talking about WHY your replies have spiraled down tantrum hill instead of remaining mature and civil. From the beginning of your participation in this thread you have labeled me anti kihon and anti kata when there is absolutely NOTHING in this thread to warrant any such labeling. You nor anyone else can go through my posts to show and prove that I am anti kata or anti kihon. Labels and accusations are tactics used by people who cannot logically defend a position that they have taken up.

When I expressed my opinion you aggressively rejected it,

100% False!!! Go back and reread my VERY FIRST reply to you and show everyone reading this thread where, when and how I Aggressively rejected your opinion. The key word here is aggressive.

I respectfully expressed my differences of opinion and I respectfully explained why I had a difference of opinion. I did not up the anty on my posts towards you until I realized that's what you were doing towards me. If you calm it down I will also calm it down. If you want to take the gloves and mouthpiece off then I can meet you in kind. The ball is in your court.

while all I was saying is that I found bunkai interesting and useful, even though it is not a necessity. It made me appreciate kata more than just punching in the air.

And I know that I made it quite clear that I have no problem with you or anyone else doing that and that it is not a practice I partake in. You seem to have a problem with my views on this while I have no problems at all with your views as long as your opinions are not being expressed as thought they were undeniable facts. Reread our interaction from the beginning leading up to this point Tay and trying doing so with your anger meter turned down.

Re-read your comments and see how you literally attack me for my views and also for believing in one of Oyama's first ever students who is still alive, the head of the IFK and a humble and honest man.

I have a better idea. How about you QUOTE ME where I attacked you for your views. That's even better. And please find where I did this BEFORE the gloves came off, not after. I'll remind you if you keep it civil then I will keep civil as well. If you want to add fire and spice in this conversation then I can do that as well. I'd rather we either keep it civil or just don't correspond with each other anymore.

And as far as Hanshi Arneil being the head of the IFK that is His organization that he created, it is not Sosai Oyama's organization that he left in his name and care. As far as him being an honest man; I'm not saying he's honest or dishonest as I do not personally know him. I'll repeat what I already said that He's Human. I can only hope that you would be willing to ponder on those words and try to be rational about this.

There are other ways to express your views than a "know it all" approach, quoting people with bolds and colours, calling them Sir, and basically being condescending. It's also a very easy thing to do on an internet forum.

You choose to interpret my use of bold print and colors as a sign of being condescending and a know it all. It's funny that you are the FIRST and ONLY person on this forum to come at me with that accusation.

Calling people Sir is a habit that I have had for years now. And if I am being condescending towards a person then I will not call him Sir at all as I reserve that term for those I consider myself to be on civil terms with.

And as far as how easy it is to go at it on an internet forum I am asking you what are you trying to saying Tay? I can't help but get this feeling that you are trying to lowkey call me out. If you have something you need to get off your chest I wish you would either just say it or leave it alone.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Not to get into a shit fest with another "karate sucks!" thread. But I have met plenty of "traditional" Karateka from Goju-ryu, Shotokan etc backgrounds that I have no doubt would easily fuck up the average street thug if they wanted to. Not just because of their choice of martial art, but either because of their speed or understanding of human movement they would easily handle themselves well.

Makes sense. I'm sure this is also what Joe Hallenbeck was alluding to in his first reply:

Be fit, strong, agile and metally tough.

PS. I like Karate.

 

[AshiharaFan]

There's a difference between word of mouth passed through generations, and believing someone I respect and trust when they tell me what they used to practice and train with Sosai Oyama.

And there's a difference between believing the verbal statements of fallible human beings and that which is PRESERVED in written and video format.