TMA poaching students, a concern

[ElKarlo]

The other coach promoting a guy to blue thread, got me thinking. BJJ is still new to the MMA scene, and in most places is still prolly expanding. But as things slow down, people start to fight over students, which can be good, as competition brings out a lot of good in us.
But as for the bad, I used to do Karate. My sensei, Tim ran a small dojo in a little in a retail place. With perhaps 60 students total. It wasn7t the best place ever, but as far as American style KB went, it was pretty solid. Anyhow, what was odd, that I saw, was that the O-sensei Joe would come by now and again. To teach, or just to train with us. Often times he brought his students. Who were pretty good, but almost all of them were BBs, or browns.

I also noticed that out school didn't have any BBs, outside of the 3 senseis.
Turns out that Joe would come in and scout out students, and basically steal them. Esp the BBs and browns. As giving someone a BB is a big deal, as it keeps your lineage going. Anyhow they had a massive falling out. Though they had been friends for years, and Tim even converted to Mormonish on account of their friendship.

Anyhow, as far as BJJ goes, do you see this being a problem? I know this is just politics, but they can ruin a school, an association, or even a style.

So really what is stopping guys with big names, stealing guys from their local association? yes, it turns off their associate schools, but many of those schools perhaps can't afford to change associations.

It can happen innocently. 'oh you are a Purple now? Come on down to my school and train, I can help you with your advanced game', and slowly the head guy steals some of the better talent, or even the majority of the upper belts.

Just a thought, and if you are part of running a school, maybe something to think about. As it did some series damage to my Karate dojo. Anyhow, this is def way in the future.

 

[seatea]

I think it's about profit, if a dojo is run as a business then the more students, the more money.

My experence is limited to Judo, which is an ameteur sport often funded (at least partly) by the government so the insentive to poach students is less. In the UK top level Judokas are told were to train; if they don't do as they are told their funding is cut, so they have to up sticks and move near to the BJA's high performance facility.

BJJ clubs are run as businesses, one I went to (Gracie Barra Birmingham, Estima's place) charge

 

[ElKarlo]

I think it's about profit, if a dojo is run as a business then the more students, the more money.

My experence is limited to Judo, which is an ameteur sport often funded (at least partly) by the government so the insentive to poach students is less. In the UK top level Judokas are told were to train; if they don't do as they are told their funding is cut, so they have to up sticks and move near to the BJA's high performance facility.

BJJ clubs are run as businesses, one I went to (Gracie Barra Birmingham, Estima's place) charge

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I've seen supervising black belts go to purple belt/brown belt academies and give seminars/belt promotions, but never any "poaching." It's usually left up to the students to do whatever they want in a given association.

Usually, if a purple belt instructor starts with a bunch of new students, by the time those students are purple, the purple will be a black belt and there's no reason to switch to another academy, especially since they "grew up" with their instructor. There is something to be said about the instructor-student relationship in BJJ when both are growing and being promoted together, it can sometimes create a greater bond than say a brand new student who studies under an already established black belt, where there is a vast difference between skill and promotion.

And as mentioned above, contracts tend to ensure that students have some duration of committment to a given academy.

 

[ElKarlo]

I've seen supervising black belts go to purple belt/brown belt academies and give seminars/belt promotions, but never any "poaching." It's usually left up to the students to do whatever they want in a given association.

Usually, if a purple belt instructor starts with a bunch of new students, by the time those students are purple, the purple will be a black belt and there's no reason to switch to another academy, especially since they "grew up" with their instructor. There is something to be said about the instructor-student relationship in BJJ when both are growing and being promoted together, it can sometimes create a greater bond than say a brand new student who studies under an already established black belt, where there is a vast difference between skill and promotion.

And as mentioned above, contracts tend to ensure that students have some duration of committment to a given academy.

I meant more, snagging purples from a gym. On the account that they can get better advanced training from the other affiliation's head.

The bonds can be broken, especially if the student thinks that they can learn more at the Osensei's place. Just wondering, haven't seen it happen in BJJ yet. But I suspect we may be close.

 

[shortbread]

BJJ clubs are run as businesses, one I went to (Gracie Barra Birmingham, Estima's place) charge

 

[seatea]

That's crazy expensive. I pay

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

That's crazy expensive. I pay

 

[silverD**]

we live in a free market society and not nazi germany. unfortunately most dojo owners act like they are in the mafia or some bull crap. its survival of the fittest and people will fall to the best dojo possible.

if a student goes off to another instructor then he was never yours to begin with.

omg that sounded so gay

 

[RAWilliams]

It seems to me that owners of small affiliate gyms have two very important tools to deter (but not stop) poaching.

1) Long term gym contracts between the gym and the students. People are less likely to change gyms on a whim if they know they are financially committed for at least several months. The cost to exchange (that is, for the customer to replace one gym with another) is high if there's a lot of time left on the contract. So whatever changes people make tend to be very well thought through and planned in advance. It doesn't keep people from switching gyms and the law gives the consumer a little bit of protection against very unfair contracts and automatic billing, but it does protect the interests of the business owner.

2) Using a franchise system for affiliates. The franchise agreement is a legal contract between the small affiliate (the "franchisee") and the established gym or chain (the "franchisor"). A franchise agreement is a hefty contract with a bunch of stuff in it that might cover everything from logos to advertising to equipment standards. But one of the things common to every franchise agreement is a buffer zone of sorts. That's a physical radius within which the franchisor cannot grant more franchises to possible competitors. This guarantees franchisees don't have to compete with each other or with the franchisor within a limited geographical area. How big the buffer zone is depends on the specific franchise contract. Not all franchise agreements are created equal; they're like restaurant franchises that way. But it guarantees that students will have to travel outside this area if they want to train with a different affiliate or with the bigger gym (there's the cost to exchange thing again). Travel distance is a factor for most people when choosing a gym, so the size of the buffer zone laid out in an affiliate's franchise contract is important.

So far as I can tell, BJJ is being taught chiefly as a for-profit enterprise, so the franchise system is in heavy use as is the long-term contract.

The only thing that will completely stop poaching is to have what the majority of the higher belts want. If they're competitors, provide the best competition team, or the most qualified instructor, or the best class size. Etc., etc. Find a teacher with an even bigger name, an even more illustrious lineage, and even better teaching skills, and hire him as a chief instructor. Or, you could harness the poaching trend and take advantage of it. The affiliate could start deliberately feeding higher level students to the big name school and instructor, making it easy to switch or get out of a long-term contract, in exchange for a finder's fee from the big name school, possibly a percentage of the fees paid for the first year. It can be done legally, depending on what's in the franchise agreement.

 

[gatsby5555]

What's stopping them? Nothing but the ever present threat of a good ol' fashioned dojo storm imo.

 

[greedysob]

How long did it take to get close to black belt in the Karate schools you belonged to? The reason I ask is because that could be a difference between the poach-ability of a near black belt with ~2-3 years with a karate instructor (not uncommon in some circles) and a near balck belt with almost 10 years with his BJJ instructor (also not uncommon). I would think the latter would be harder to poach.

 

[samb867]

BJJ clubs are run as businesses, one I went to (Gracie Barra Birmingham, Estima's place) charge

 

[lechien]

I think students would move to the HQ because they have a bigger team i. training partners.

I cannot see a high belt doing a seminar and poaching students. He already cashing in on the seminar.

 

[ElKarlo]

It seems to me that owners of small affiliate gyms have two very important tools to deter (but not stop) poaching.

1) Long term gym contracts between the gym and the students. People are less likely to change gyms on a whim if they know they are financially committed for at least several months. The cost to exchange (that is, for the customer to replace one gym with another) is high if there's a lot of time left on the contract. So whatever changes people make tend to be very well thought through and planned in advance. It doesn't keep people from switching gyms and the law gives the consumer a little bit of protection against very unfair contracts and automatic billing, but it does protect the interests of the business owner.

2) Using a franchise system for affiliates. The franchise agreement is a legal contract between the small affiliate (the "franchisee") and the established gym or chain (the "franchisor"). A franchise agreement is a hefty contract with a bunch of stuff in it that might cover everything from logos to advertising to equipment standards. But one of the things common to every franchise agreement is a buffer zone of sorts. That's a physical radius within which the franchisor cannot grant more franchises to possible competitors. This guarantees franchisees don't have to compete with each other or with the franchisor within a limited geographical area. How big the buffer zone is depends on the specific franchise contract. Not all franchise agreements are created equal; they're like restaurant franchises that way. But it guarantees that students will have to travel outside this area if they want to train with a different affiliate or with the bigger gym (there's the cost to exchange thing again). Travel distance is a factor for most people when choosing a gym, so the size of the buffer zone laid out in an affiliate's franchise contract is important.

So far as I can tell, BJJ is being taught chiefly as a for-profit enterprise, so the franchise system is in heavy use as is the long-term contract.

The only thing that will completely stop poaching is to have what the majority of the higher belts want. If they're competitors, provide the best competition team, or the most qualified instructor, or the best class size. Etc., etc. Find a teacher with an even bigger name, an even more illustrious lineage, and even better teaching skills, and hire him as a chief instructor. Or, you could harness the poaching trend and take advantage of it. The affiliate could start deliberately feeding higher level students to the big name school and instructor, making it easy to switch or get out of a long-term contract, in exchange for a finder's fee from the big name school, possibly a percentage of the fees paid for the first year. It can be done legally, depending on what's in the franchise agreement.

Those are very good points. I guess there are a few more safety nets in BJJ. As i think losing your upper belts is pretty rough on most schools. I mean, how man y people are even purple and up? Prolly less than 10%

About hiring an illustrious instructor. I think that is some bitter medicine for most anyone. Hard to not be the Alpha at your own school. Plus I bet they don't come cheap.

 

[ElKarlo]

How long did it take to get close to black belt in the Karate schools you belonged to? The reason I ask is because that could be a difference between the poach-ability of a near black belt with ~2-3 years with a karate instructor (not uncommon in some circles) and a near balck belt with almost 10 years with his BJJ instructor (also not uncommon). I would think the latter would be harder to poach.

Actually when I first started, it was like 6 years to get your BB. For most of the BBS that my sensei made, they took 6 or so years working on it. But towards the end it was more like 4 years. it def isn't the 10-12 in BJJ, but it's not the 1-3 that is usually in TKD.

I got my 3rd kyu in about 2 years. But I went all the time, and stayed for all the classes.

 

[ElKarlo]

I think students would move to the HQ because they have a bigger team i. training partners.

I cannot see a high belt doing a seminar and poaching students. He already cashing in on the seminar.

Yeah, def see the first happening. I mean that is easy and natural to happen. It is a temptation for both the head coach, and the upper belt.


But anyhow, I ask mostly to consider these things, as drama should be kept to the min in BJJ.

 

[seatea]

Just to clarify, I train there and PSB's correct about that being the price per month. Still pretty expensive, but the teaching is phenomenal.

I am!?:redface:

 

[redaxe]

2) Using a franchise system for affiliates. The franchise agreement is a legal contract between the small affiliate (the "franchisee") and the established gym or chain (the "franchisor"). A franchise agreement is a hefty contract with a bunch of stuff in it that might cover everything from logos to advertising to equipment standards. But one of the things common to every franchise agreement is a buffer zone of sorts. That's a physical radius within which the franchisor cannot grant more franchises to possible competitors. This guarantees franchisees don't have to compete with each other or with the franchisor within a limited geographical area. How big the buffer zone is depends on the specific franchise contract. Not all franchise agreements are created equal; they're like restaurant franchises that way. But it guarantees that students will have to travel outside this area if they want to train with a different affiliate or with the bigger gym (there's the cost to exchange thing again). Travel distance is a factor for most people when choosing a gym, so the size of the buffer zone laid out in an affiliate's franchise contract is important.

I'm sure all the franchises have geographical limitation clauses in them, but they are flaunted with abandon and I've never heard of them being enforced in court. For Gracie Barra it's supposedly 15 miles, but do you have any idea how many Gracie Barra schools you can find within a 15 mile radius in LA or San Diego? Even in my city there are three within 15 miles of each other.

 

[Ybot]

Did some one say Loyd Irvin??? J/K (Kind of...)

Really, the bigger problem I've seen at most US Jiu-Jitsu schools is once a student reached purple or brown they broke off and started their own school and became competition. Seems better at least keeping them within the association...