Tito Trinidad Guard

[destroyer4147]

Trinidad holds his hands really, really close and tightly to his face. What would his guard properly be called?

It seems a little too low to be a "high guard" because his gloves don't reach his temples. His gloved hands only cover his cheeks and chin.

It also seems different from "peekaboo" as his hands are a bit more to the side of his face, rather than the front of it.

My pro-Oscar, Tito-hating neighbors call it a "chicken wing stance," even though it's a guard, not a stance.

Would it be closest to and most properly called a high guard, peekaboo, or something else?

 

[SSgt Dickweed]

The loaded gloves stance? Fernando Vargas said that many in-the-know people say that Tito's coach loaded his gloves. His opponents react differently from getting hit by him. It's like they got hit with a brick instead of a punch, but wtf do I know?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Honestly, I'm just glad to see someone else giving Tito Trinidad some love. Outstanding boxer.

To my eyes it looks like his own take on a high guard, I don't think there's any 'reason' behind it. I think it's just how he personally felt comfortable + he was able to defend and fight from any range with it:

I definitely agree its different to fellow Puerto Rican, Miguel Cotto, holds his guard:

I think it might in part be why Tito's punches were a bit more loopy/wild, he was also a more reflexive fighter than Cotto IMO, Cotto moved his head of course but Tito didn't need his gloves for defence as much, which might also be part of the lower guard. Because of course, if you have lower hands you can guarantee that your opponent's gonna try and head hunt at first, meaning you already know how to defend most of the time

 

[AndyMaBobs]

The loaded gloves stance? Fernando Vargas said that many in-the-know people say that Tito's coach loaded his gloves. His opponents react differently from getting hit by him. It's like they got hit with a brick instead of a punch, but wtf do I know?

Was this ever proven? Like it was with Margarito?

 

[destroyer4147]

Honestly, I'm just glad to see someone else giving Tito Trinidad some love. Outstanding boxer.

To my eyes it looks like his own take on a high guard, I don't think there's any 'reason' behind it. I think it's just how he personally felt comfortable + he was able to defend and fight from any range with it:

I definitely agree its different to fellow Puerto Rican, Miguel Cotto, holds his guard:

I think it might in part be why Tito's punches were a bit more loopy/wild, he was also a more reflexive fighter than Cotto IMO, Cotto moved his head of course but Tito didn't need his gloves for defence as much, which might also be part of the lower guard. Because of course, if you have lower hands you can guarantee that your opponent's gonna try and head hunt at first, meaning you already know how to defend most of the time

Right! Cotto definitely has the truer "high guard." I also agree with Tito being more reflexive. Cotto seems to move his head when he decides gets into that whole groove of "I'm gonna move my head" sequence. Cotto moves his head in anticipation, whereas Tito moves his head in reaction. Tito does like to often slip jabs to the inside, which may be a reason why he was susceptible to straight rights.

I'm not sure if I agree that Tito's punches were loopier than Cotto's. Tito's right hand tends to be thrown pretty straight. Watching him fight Wright and Jones, he seems uncomfortable throwing rights that aren't straight. Can you elaborate more on how you feel Tito's punches are more loopy/wild than Cotto's, and can you also elaborate how a lower guard may contribute to that?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Right! Cotto definitely has the truer "high guard." I also agree with Tito being more reflexive. Cotto seems to move his head when he decides gets into that whole groove of "I'm gonna move my head" sequence. Cotto moves his head in anticipation, whereas Tito moves his head in reaction. Tito does like to often slip jabs to the inside, which may be a reason why he was susceptible to straight rights.

I'm not sure if I agree that Tito's punches were loopier than Cotto's. Tito's right hand tends to be thrown pretty straight. Watching him fight Wright and Jones, he seems uncomfortable throwing rights that aren't straight. Can you elaborate more on how you feel Tito's punches are more loopy/wild than Cotto's, and can you also elaborate how a lower guard may contribute to that?

So because his elbows flare out, this gives his punches a little more of an arc, vs Cotto who's guard is very tight meaning his hook doesn't leave his body open, and his straight comes 6 to 12.

Cotto is closer to 'textbook' - but Trinidad obviously has very good technique - I don't think his punches are 'wild' put it that way, I just don't think they're AS clean

 

[Buddy Revell]

I would just describe Trinidad’s guard as a textbook seek and destroy guard. The comparison to the peekaboo is a good one. The difference between the two is obviously that peekaboo is tailored for short seek and destroy boxers (more level change to create leg thrust, more waist movement, just plain more dynamic) while what Trinidad did is better for punching downhill (and why Tito was not effective against bigger/taller men).

A few keys that made Trinidad so good with this style were that he was extremely relaxed and always on the balls of his back foot and shifting at the waist. He was always in position to punch and at 147&154 was always able to get off first.

And he had a solid enough chin and recuperative ability to use his superior hands to beat all comers in a fire fight - even they even wanted the smoke - or out hustle them to a UD if they didn’t. It’s the reason he beat Whitaker while others who will go unnamed didn’t. He was a punching machine.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

A low high guard?

And that time from the mid 90s to early 2000s was one of the last golden ages for the welter to middle weight divisions (including jr. welter and jr. middle). Oscar, Tito, Quartey, Mosley, Carr, Whitaker, Vargas, Hopkins, Tszyu, Judah, Mitchell, Wright, Forrest, Mayorga, Reid, Joppy.

And I do think he'd been wrapping his hands illegally (loaded gloves) for most of his career. That said Oscar has said no matter what Tito hit hard (partly because he committed to his punches).

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Honestly, I'm just glad to see someone else giving Tito Trinidad some love. Outstanding boxer.

To my eyes it looks like his own take on a high guard, I don't think there's any 'reason' behind it. I think it's just how he personally felt comfortable + he was able to defend and fight from any range with it:

I definitely agree its different to fellow Puerto Rican, Miguel Cotto, holds his guard:

I think it might in part be why Tito's punches were a bit more loopy/wild, he was also a more reflexive fighter than Cotto IMO, Cotto moved his head of course but Tito didn't need his gloves for defence as much, which might also be part of the lower guard. Because of course, if you have lower hands you can guarantee that your opponent's gonna try and head hunt at first, meaning you already know how to defend most of the time

One thing that people don't recognize was how deceptively fast Tito was. You think power puncher who plants but he had some very fast hand (reflexes). That first hook against Vargas was like a lightening bolt.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

Was this ever proven? Like it was with Margarito?

He had some issues with "stacking" which is putting a layer of gauze and then tape over it and repeating that process some more. It is supposed to make your wrap very hard compared to the traditional gauze over gauze and one layer of tape at the end. He was "caught" by Naazim Richardson in the fight vs Hopkins and stacking is illegal by the New York Comission but not in other states like California I believe (don't quote me on that).

Also the boxing world never conclusively figured out the Margarito glove issue. If I am remembering correctly the substances that came out of his gloves were not solid like a rock but just a firm and solid pad (that could potentially harden). It seems like the California Comission made sure a proper investigation couldnt be done maybe to save face?

Those pads that came out of Margarito's gloves were very unusual and Brother Naazim Richardson is very sharp about noticing irregularities in hand wraps but unforunately nothing 100 percent conclusive came out of the California Bocing Comissions tests of the pads.
They used the words plaster like substance when describing Margarito's gloves when they revoked his license.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

If any of you are interested here is a long article about the Middleweight Tournament 2001.

Long read but well worth it.

http://fromthevault.hbo.com/hopkinstrinidad#the-fight

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Was this ever proven? Like it was with Margarito?

Nazzim caught them wrapping with too much Gauze/tape on the knuckles (Trinidad's father).

Nazzim caught Margorito's team putting a plaster pad in.

So yeah it was proven in both cases.
No other evidence was given (to my knowledge) but the suspicion was there for both. I think Tito's dad even said we've always wrapped our hand this way. When asked about just before the fight Bernard replied "that doesn't make it right."

 

[destroyer4147]

What would be some tactical advantages or disadvantages to Tito's guard as opposed to a more typical high guard.

How does Tito generally overcome those disadvantages of his guard?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

What would be some tactical advantages or disadvantages to Tito's guard as opposed to a more typical high guard.

How does Tito generally overcome those disadvantages of his guard?

In all honesty, I don't think it is any different to a normal guard in terms of advantages and disadvantages - people could nitpick and say it would take longer for him to block a punch than if he had a high guard but in real life that clearly wasn't actually true - a lot of times, especially on Sherdog people get bogged down in hypothetical ways something can be an advantage or disadvantage - but irl makes no differences